Amazon uses DMCA to restrict where you can buy e-books

[RobbieClarken]

Originally Posted by iterati

It appears that many lack the knowledge of the current business model. No one is shooting their foot or anything similar. Amazon or Sony or any other companies are not non-profit organizations, their directive isn’t to bring you new technology or innovation, isn’t to enlighten the masses either, it’s to make money and use all means for that purpose. Anyway, who doesn’t want to make more? If you sell something you don’t want to price it higher too? No? You don’t want to force the consumer to buy more from you? I can’t understand why there are people that state surprised because of such tactics.

They are shooting themselves in the foot because this decision will upset many current and potential customers who will then buy other ebook devices. If you think Amazon is in such a powerful position with trapped customers, why are Kindle ebooks always cheaper than the competition? My view is that Amazon made a blunder here but in general they are trying to offer the best product for their customers (to make money, of course; that's how capitalism works). Unfortunately this requires they impose a restrictive DRM scheme to appease publishers and hence guarantee the widest selection of books (although I do think it is wrong how they force DRM on authors and publishers that don't want it).

[TadW]

Originally Posted by epiphany

I also think that Amazon's decision is to try and stop people stripping DRM from Kindle books. My suspicion is that Amazon is able to convince publishers to release ebooks by arguing that their DRM stops people sharing the books. The existence of KindlePID and MobiDeDRM endanger this. I don't think that Amazon is trying to stop people buying books from other sources but it would be nice if they were more open about their reasons.

(emphasis mine)

You're probably right. But the consequence of demonizing kindlepid.py leads to exactly that: I cannot buy DRM'ed .mobi books from anywhere anymore for my Kindle.

[iterati]

Originally Posted by epiphany

They are shooting themselves in the foot because this decision will upset many current and potential customers who will then buy other ebook devices. If you think Amazon is in such a powerful position with trapped customers, why are Kindle ebooks always cheaper than the competition? My view is that Amazon made a blunder here but in general they are trying to offer the best product for their customers (to make money, of course; that's how capitalism works). Unfortunately this requires they impose a restrictive DRM scheme to appease publishers and hence guarantee the widest selection of books (although I do think it is wrong how they force DRM on authors and publishers that don't want it).

Oh, I understand Amazon so well. They offer cheaper ebooks than the competition for the exact reason to trap the customer and because they have the level to execute it. First, ebook market is not large yet and they don’t mind the lesser profit margin; for now… But stay assured, things will change after they acquire the edge in customer volume. It’s the small vs. large company model. While small offer cheaper prices, flexible products, gifts and generally draw as much customers as possible. If you are large then do the same but then attempt to press on your proprietary products too. And when you become monopoly then you are the king.

What if they “attacked” a site? I don’t think that’d make a difference, perhaps it’ll dishearten few from buying the kindle. So what? What they want is secrecy. Think about buying a washing machine and then you discover that it operates only if you use their own detergent too. Yes, it’s not so funny, it doesn’t apply in washing machines nowadays but it does in many other fields. Example the Nokia phone and their batteries, Nokia is spending millions for marketing in order to discourage customers buying clone batteries (that they cost 10 times less). Another example is MS Windows, of course, simply consider how many products MS attempted to push using Windows as trojan horse.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by iterati

Oh, I understand Amazon so well. They offer cheaper ebooks than the competition for the exact reason to trap the customer and because they have the level to execute it. First, ebook market is not large yet and they don’t mind the lesser profit margin; for now… But stay assured, things will change after they acquire the edge in customer volume. It’s the small vs. large company model. While small offer cheaper prices, flexible products, gifts and generally draw as much customers as possible. If you are large then do the same but then attempt to press on your proprietary products too. And when you become monopoly then you are the king.

What if they “attacked” a site? I don’t think that’d make a difference, perhaps it’ll dishearten few from buying the kindle. So what? What they want is secrecy. Think about buying a washing machine and then you discover that it operates only if you use their own detergent too. Yes, it’s not so funny, it doesn’t apply in washing machines nowadays but it does in many other fields. Example the Nokia phone and their batteries, Nokia is spending millions for marketing in order to discourage customers buying clone batteries (that they cost 10 times less). Another example is MS Windows, of course, simply consider how many products MS attempted to push using Windows as trojan horse.

If what they want is secrecy, then they have already lost. Nothing is secret anymore, not on the internet. They're battling a tide that is only surging higher, and with more velocity every day. The culture is changing, rapidly. These dinosaur ideas about business will either have to adapt or face extinction.

[iterati]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

If what they want is secrecy, then they have already lost. Nothing is secret anymore, not on the internet. They're battling a tide that is only surging higher, and with more velocity every day. The culture is changing, rapidly. These dinosaur ideas about business will either have to adapt or face extinction.

Exactly, I mentioned it before that information is the power of the many and internet gives us that edge, despite the many attempts to censor it or monitor it. But you still have to consider the power of inertia and willingness of many to enjoy their comforts even if that eradicates certain freedoms.

[RobbieClarken]

Originally Posted by iterati

Oh, I understand Amazon so well. They offer cheaper ebooks than the competition for the exact reason to trap the customer and because they have the level to execute it. First, ebook market is not large yet and they don’t mind the lesser profit margin; for now… But stay assured, things will change after they acquire the edge in customer volume. It’s the small vs. large company model. While small offer cheaper prices, flexible products, gifts and generally draw as much customers as possible. If you are large then do the same but then attempt to press on your proprietary products too. And when you become monopoly then you are the king.

Out of curiosity, can you offer any examples of companies that have succeeded in doing this? Despite the paranoia of people claiming Amazon or Google or whoever else is going to monopolise the ebook, I see plenty of competition and no evidence that this is going to change anytime soon. In fact other people are claiming that if Amazon gets too powerful they will drive prices too low for publishers and authors (boo-hoo).

Originally Posted by iterati

But you still have to consider the power of inertia and willingness of many to enjoy their comforts even if that eradicates certain freedoms.

Everyone that buys a Kindle is giving up the freedom to easily transfer books from other sources to their Kindle in exchange for the convenience of buying books wirelessly from Amazon. Who are we to judge whether this is a fair trade-off? Tools such as KindlePID and KindleFix will always be out there for those who want them so I don't see the problem.

[iterati]

Originally Posted by epiphany

Out of curiosity, can you offer any examples of companies that have succeeded in doing this? Despite the paranoia of people claiming Amazon or Google or whoever else is going to monopolise the ebook, I see plenty of competition and no evidence that this is going to change anytime soon. In fact other people are claiming that if Amazon gets too powerful they will drive prices too low for publishers and authors (boo-hoo).

MS, Apple, IBM, Sony, Nokia, Intel. Eventually such corporations after their days of glory tend to detoriate.

[sebastien]

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/12/1846224

[Spectrum]

The dummies at Amazon like dummies at hollywood/RIAA do not understand the impact of their DMCA/do not trust customers the follies they are indulging. History as proven them wrong every time.

I for one won't buy Kindle aka Swindle at that outrageous price and listen to them what I can/cannot do with the product I buy.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by whitearrow

But even if Kindlefix is a circumvention of DRM the company that would have a legitimate beef is the company that the eBook was purchased from -- BooksonBoard or whoever, or the publisher. Not Amazon, it isn't their DRM being circumvented. It doesn't touch any file that was purchased from Amazon. Amazon has no more business in what's in that file than they do my work documents I converted from .doc or .rtf.

Sounds reasonable. But maybe Amazon "owns" the DRM-scheme and as has been pointed out in other threads it does not matter if you legally can read something, circumventing the DRM can still be problematic.

[mjh215]

The flaw in the former member's logic with regards to Amazon being allowed to control where you can purchase ebooks from is that you bought the Kindle, you didn't get it as part of a service contract.

Many people have compared this to software on a specific platform and rightly so but another analogy I'd like to make is if you were to buy a GM vehicle, GM wouldn't have the right to tell you where you can or can not take it for servicing. You have the right to take it to a Ford service center if you choose. If however you leased the vehicle and the contract stipulates where you can take it that is another story.

It is also another story if the person wanted to get a repair paid for by the warranty, in which case GM can dictate where you would have to go. You could chose somewhere else but forfeit their paying for it.

Also if you sign into a one-year service contract with a cell phone company and get your phone as a discount you don't then have the right to switch carriers without incurring penalties as you don't outright own the phone. However if you were to purchase your phone as you do a Kindle you should have the right to use it where ever you want. When a phone only allows a certain carrier you are informed of this upfront. When you purchase a Kindle, they extoll the virtues of their bookstore but don't inform the customer that you are only allowed to read -their- books on it. Not allowing you to connect to a competitor using their Whispernet is one thing, actively sabotaging your abilities on your own property is another.

-MJ

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by catsittingstill

? I thought the program in question made it possible to put DRMed Mobipocket books on Kindle? Not to use Kindle books on anything else? So I don't see how they could be worried about people buying Kindle books and reading them on non-Kindles.

Maybe I'm just confused...

The problem is that it allows people to purchase DRMed eBooks from another source other then Amazon.com for DRMed eBooks. And it also allows people to borrow library eBooks as well. Granted Amazon owns Mobipocket, but I'm thinking it's more of rthe fact that because Amazon.com hosts all the Kindle DRMed eBooks, they don't have to share any of the profit with anyone else. If I was to purchase from another shop, that shop would get some of the profit. And if I borrow from a library, Amazon gets nothing at all. And because the iPhone/iPod Touch have been figured out so the AZW eBooks can be liberated and the DRM stripped, Apple is worried that the reverse is going to be true. That Kindle eBooks will be used on other devices.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

It really isn't clear what Amazon thinks the problem is.

The undoubtedly legal use of KindlePID is to register the Kindle or iPhone with OverDrive and read lending library or purchased MOBI ebooks using Kindle software (after running them through KindleFIX). I say "undoubtedly legal" in the sense of legal from the ebook copyright holders point of view (OverDrive is the agent of the copyright holder, and they very definitely have approved the use of the Kindle or the iPhone because they accepted the PID). Amazon seems to think that software that displays ebooks also has "rights" under the DMCA, even if there is no copyright owner in the loop. Or perhaps they are just ignoring the legal use of the software because they don't like its other (perhaps less legal) uses.

It does seem that the iPhone version set this all off, and it may be that the problem is that millions of iPhone owners can now buy Kindle Store ebooks and with the PID from KindlePID these can be converted to DRM-free MOBIs using mobidedrm. KindlePID does not remove the DRM, but without KindlePID mobidedrm can't do its job (since, unlike with MobiPocket software, there is never a need for the reader to know the PID). Secret keys can be part of a DRM scheme (and the impossibility of keeping them secret is one reason why DRM does not work), so perhaps Amazon has a point.

I think it is likely that the OverDrive use of KindlePID makes it completely legal, i.e. it does not mater if there is an infringing use if there is also a substantial non-infringing use. It is scandalous that Amazon does not officially allow lending library ebooks on the Kindle, and this will become widely known if Amazon ever sues someone over KindlePID. This would be a public relations disaster for them, but companies have done worse things against their own interests in the past.

But, just knowing the PID is not enough to allow you to view Mobipocket eBooks on the Kindle. The Kindle uses a document ID type setup. So you also need kindlefix to change the document ID once the PID is in place. Without both, you cannot shift Mobipocket to Kindle. And I think that Amazon is worried about someone doing the reveres with a tool to change the PID and shift so Amazon eBooks can be read on something other then a Kindle or Kindle app.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by whitearrow

But even if Kindlefix is a circumvention of DRM the company that would have a legitimate beef is the company that the eBook was purchased from -- BooksonBoard or whoever, or the publisher. Not Amazon, it isn't their DRM being circumvented. It doesn't touch any file that was purchased from Amazon. Amazon has no more business in what's in that file than they do my work documents I converted from .doc or .rtf.

Actually, you are slightly incorrect here. You see, kindlefix works on Mobipocket eBooks. Amazon owns Mobipocket and the Mobipocket DRM. So when you shift a Mobipocket eBook from Mobipocket to the Kindle, you are in fact giving Amazon a possible legal beef with what you just did. But, Amazon can see what content you have on your Kindle if they desire. The TOS says they can.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by mjh215

Many people have compared this to software on a specific platform and rightly so but another analogy I'd like to make is if you were to buy a GM vehicle, GM wouldn't have the right to tell you where you can or can not take it for servicing. You have the right to take it to a Ford service center if you choose. If however you leased the vehicle and the contract stipulates where you can take it that is another story.

But they can implement a DRM-scheme that makes it impossible to service the car in other places and circumventing the DRM might then not be legal to do.