Is this a pirate site?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

That wouldn't cover downloading something that someone else has "shared"

Which isn't directly covered by copyright law.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

That includes corporations (including the content industry) as well as individuals. You can easily argue that what they're doing to increase the scope and punishments for copyright infringement are just as morally indecent as the people who are "pirating".

Not disputing that, but it has no bearing on this discussion of piracy/theft.

Separate issue.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by "felony" - I don't think we use that word in Britain. If you tell me what it means, I'll tell you whether or not speeding is one!

Basically... a felony is a law that is considered serious enough to fall under federal jurisdiction rather than just a state matter. Murder is a felony, speeding is not. Generally when you move up to the felony level the punishments increase significantly.

You don't have the same thing in the UK, that I know of.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Not disputing that, but it has no bearing on this discussion of piracy/theft.

If you're going to call out "pirates" as being immoral, you need to apply the same standard to both sides.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Basically... a felony is a law that is considered serious enough to fall under federal jurisdiction rather than just a state matter. Murder is a felony, speeding is not. Generally when you move up to the felony level the punishments increase significantly.

You don't have the same thing in the UK, that I know of.

We don't have that distinction, because we aren't a federal system of course. Speeding is certainly a crime; and one which you can, in exceptional circumstances, go to prison for, although the normal punishment is a £60 fine and 3 points on your driving licence. Points last for 3 years; accumulate 12 points at any one time and you get banned from driving - normally for 6 months, but driving bans can be longer, even for life.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Except, of course, that's not what actually happens with copyright infringement so it's a bad analogy.

How about you make an identical copy of their car, and then take that copy for a spin. What crime occurred then? None.

You want to tell the company that designed, developed and built the car that no crime occurred?

And lets assume for the moment that the car was an incredibly rare car whose rarity made it valuable. A copy that was identical in every respect could harm the owner by reducing the rarity of the car.

--
Bill

[TGS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

So does "piracy", but people seem perfectly happy to use that, even though copyright infringement has absolutely nothing to do with robbery at sea, which is what piracy actually is.

We can't control what people call things. Like it or not, some people use the word "theft" for copyright infringement, just as other people use the word "piracy"; both are of course, technically incorrect, but language is a living, evolving, thing. It's futile to try to dictate to people what they should or should not call something.

We may be unable to control what people call things, but we can be aware of the way in which what we call things functions. In the current example calling what people do "theft" or "piracy" seems to function to throw more heat than light on the issue. It's a bit like whether one constructs tax as a "burden" or a "contribution". If you construct it as a burden you have already decided that it's something that's not a good thing, ought to be avoided and something that one almost has a duty to minimize. None of these things are intrinsic to tax as such, but convey an attitude towards it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by TGS

We may be unable to control what people call things, but we can be aware of the way in which what we call things functions. In the current example calling what people do "theft" or "piracy" seems to function to throw more heat than light on the issue. It's a bit like whether one constructs tax as a "burden" or a "contribution". If you construct it as a burden you have already decided that it's something that's not a good thing, ought to be avoided and something that one almost has a duty to minimize. None of these things are intrinsic to tax as such, but convey an attitude towards it.

Very true, and don't you think that many of the people who use the word "piracy" do so because the image of the pirate as an "outlaw" has a certain romanticism in popular culture, and makes the act of taking someone's intellectual property without paying for it sound less sordid than it actually is?

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by HarryT

So does "piracy", but people seem perfectly happy to use that, even though copyright infringement has absolutely nothing to do with robbery at sea, which is what piracy actually is.

We can't control what people call things. Like it or not, some people use the word "theft" for copyright infringement, just as other people use the word "piracy"; both are of course, technically incorrect, but language is a living, evolving, thing. It's futile to try to dictate to people what they should or should not call something.

I would point out that your second paragraph essentially points out that using the word piracy and/or theft for illegally distributing files is now in fact appropriate. In English at least, many words have a one to many relationship.. I.e., a word can have multiple meanings some of which have very little to do with the original meaning of the word.

In addition, there tends to be legal definitions which often overlap with some of the common definitions of words. However, they don't limit the common use of the language.

So, I move that we abandon these pointless discussions by arm chair lawyers about whether file sharing is theft or piracy. Depending on your prespective its neither or both... or both neither and both at the same time.

The real questions are whether it should be legal and or whether it is ethical.

--
Bill

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

I would point out that your second paragraph essentially points out that using the word piracy and/or theft for illegally distributing files is now in fact appropriate. In English at least, many words have a one to many relationship.. I.e., a word can have multiple meanings some of which have very little to do with the original meaning of the word.

Yes, Bill, that's precisely the point I was making!

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

You want to tell the company that designed, developed and built the car that no crime occurred?

Absolutely. You can do it already. There are various ways that an independent enthusiast can build their own clone of some popular collector cars, completely legally. The original company has no say in it, it's not a crime.

What law did you think it would fall under?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Absolutely. You can do it already. There are various ways that an independent enthusiast can build their own clone of some popular collector cars, completely legally. The original company has no say in it, it's not a crime.

What law did you think it would fall under?

It could conceivably be a trademark infringement, if the visual appearance of the car is a registered trademark.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Very true, and don't you think that many of the people who use the word "piracy" do so because the image of the pirate as an "outlaw" has a certain romanticism in popular culture, and makes the act of taking someone's intellectual property without paying for it sound less sordid than it actually is?

No, I would say just the opposite. Pirates were known for murdering, looting, and raping... etc, and were generally executed when caught. Not sure that really applies to copyright infringement.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

So, I move that we abandon these pointless discussions

What's the use of a forum without constant pointless discussions?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

No, I would say just the opposite. Pirates were known for murdering, looting, and raping... etc, and were generally executed when caught.

That's the reality of piracy, yes, but I don't think it's the image of it in popular culture, which is more shaped by 1930s Hollywood "swashbuckling" films with Errol Flynn!