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Old 08-14-2014, 06:47 AM   #31
crich70
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
I propose we don't allow any duplicate categories. Science fiction and fantasy are different categories.
I've always understood that they are two sides of the same coin. For example if you ask a computer to make something for you ala Star Trek replicators then it's SF, but if you as a genie to do it then it's Fantasy. Publishers & traditional book stores put the two together as well as do libraries. And some things blur the line between one and the other. Star Wars for example. Is it Fantasy or SF? Or a little of both?
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by crich70 View Post
I've always understood that they are two sides of the same coin. For example if you ask a computer to make something for you ala Star Trek replicators then it's SF, but if you as a genie to do it then it's Fantasy. Publishers & traditional book stores put the two together as well as do libraries. And some things blur the line between one and the other. Star Wars for example. Is it Fantasy or SF? Or a little of both?
Star Trek is science fiction. Dungeons and Dragons is fantasy. They are very different.

Chocolate Chip Cookie Murder by Joanne Fluke (cozy mystery) is very different then say a Jack Reacher book. Sure there can be a mystery and murder in both, but the books are just so different that to put them together in the same category is not a good idea.

Yes, there can be overlap in science fiction and fantasy, but most science fiction and fantasy books fall into one category or the other.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:38 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Yes, there can be overlap in science fiction and fantasy, but most science fiction and fantasy books fall into one category or the other.
I agree with this.

That said, I don't know that they need to be separate categories for the book club's purposes. If the group as a whole would rather have a single SF/F category rather than two separate categories that is fine with me. I enjoy both and would personally prefer them to be separate because that means there will be another month I where I will likely enjoy the selection, but if the group wants it combined I wouldn't argue.

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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Star Trek is science fiction. Dungeons and Dragons is fantasy. They are very different.
Picking nits; While I don't disagree with that statement it isn't 100% correct. D&D also includes things like Spelljammer and Eberron which have some serious crossover with science fiction and steam punk*. Things like that (and Star Wars and Pern and ...) are why some places combine the two genres.

*I never know where to put steam punk. Some is SF, some is F, most is a little of both, but it is all steam punk. It is one of the main reasons I don't care if SF/F are combined as a category.

Last edited by Dazrin; 08-14-2014 at 02:04 PM. Reason: ...will BE another...
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:51 PM   #34
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I'm with JSWolf. Although they may at times overlap, SciFi and Fantasy are very distinct. There are many people who love one genre, but can't abide the other.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by WT Sharpe View Post
I'm with JSWolf. Although they may at times overlap, SciFi and Fantasy are very distinct. There are many people who love one genre, but can't abide the other.
I agree. I am just saying that the overlap is why some people/places don't care to make a distinction between the two and I can understand that. Especially for people that don't have as much interest (fanaticism? ) in the distinction as some of us.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:35 PM   #36
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So when are we having the category vote?
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:53 PM   #37
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So when are we having the category vote?
I don't think we need a vote. I think my list will do just fine. All we need to do is reorder it if need be.

This is the order I propose.

Jan - Anything Goes
Feb - Romance
Mar - Science Fiction
Apr - Humor
May - Nonfiction
Jun - Modern Fiction (year 2000 onward)
Jul - Classic
Aug - Not Modern Fiction (year 1999 backwards)
Sep - Fantasy
Oct - Mystery
Nov - MR Library
Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles)

Last edited by JSWolf; 08-14-2014 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
I don't think we need a vote. I think my list will do just fine. All we need to do is reorder it if need be.

This is the order I propose.

Jan - Anything Goes
Feb - Romance
Mar - Science Fiction
Apr - Humor
May - Nonfiction
Jun - Modern Fiction (year 2000 onward)
Jul - Classic
Aug - Not Modern Fiction (year 1999 backwards)
Sep - Fantasy
Oct - Mystery
Nov - MR Library
Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles)
Does "Modern Fiction" relate to the year it was published? What category would a historical fiction novel written in 2012 fall into?
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:06 PM   #39
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I don't think we need a vote. I think my list will do just fine. All we need to do is reorder it if need be.
I would prefer a vote to make sure we have some good buy-in, which hopefully will help participation. I made my proposal in post #25, but here is the recap:

Since nobody wants to redo the category nominations we did in 2012; let's have 3 simultaneous, multiple choice polls that cover most of the categories nominated in 2012. The three votes would be split into General, Non-Fiction Friendly and Fiction categories so that we will have a good variety throughout the year. Additional details in the spoiler.

Spoiler:
Preselected Category: No vote needed since everyone seems to like this category.
January: Second Chance (All the runners-up from last year) - Placed in January so that way we don't need nominations during the holidays and can just have the vote which can be extended since people may be busier than normal.

Vote 1 - General Categories: Top 4 will be selected.
  • Award Winners (choose your own award)
  • Banned/Challenged Books (someone had a problem with this book somewhere)
  • Classics (choose your own definition of "classic")
  • Contemporary Books ("newer" books, any source)
  • Foreign (originally non-English)
  • MR Author (especially if we can find an author who would provide a copy of their book for discussion and discuss it with us)
  • Patricia Clark Memorial Library (celebrate our own wonderful resource!)
  • Free-For-All
  • Lottery (volunteer or winner provides a list for selection, see Literary club rotating nominations. If no one wants to provide a list, this becomes a free-for-all month.)
  • Short Stories or Essays (specific short story or a collection which could be an anthology, a collection, or a web list of "best stories", etc.)
  • Independently published books
  • Personal Favorites (what is yours? Maybe limit nominations to 1 book, but don't require a second/third?)
Vote 2 - Non-Fiction Friendly Categories: Top 3 will be selected
  • Non-Fiction (anything non-fiction)
  • Science
  • Philosophy
  • Biography/Memoirs
  • Travel/Adventure (could be fiction or non-Fiction)
  • History
  • Mythology (and folk tales, etc)
  • Humor (could be fiction or non-fiction)
Vote 3 - Probably Going to be Fiction Categories: Top 4 will be selected, see note about SF/F.
  • Romance
  • Crime (fiction or non-fiction)
  • Mystery (cozy mysteries, etc.)
  • Thriller/Suspense (hard to be cozy with the action and/or tension in here)
  • Historical Fiction
  • Graphic Novels
  • Young Adult
    Note: Final selection will be limited to at most 2 of the following (to prevent saturation):
  • Speculative Fiction (catch-all for fantasy, science fiction, horror, steampunk, etc.)
  • Science Fiction (general sci-fi, Space opera, post-apocalyptic, etc.)
  • Fantasy (magic is generally involved)
  • Urban Fantasy (and paranormal or other contemporary magic.)
  • Horror (Psychological, physical, supernatural, choose your own flavor.)

Final list would be arranged by a volunteer (I will do it if no one else wants to) in a way that makes "sense", similar to what was done for the 2012 categories.
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:56 PM   #40
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Who's running the show? Early on, I suggested John F could take the reins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe View Post
It's time to start thinking about which categories we'd like for 2015....
Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
...I found the last process ... tedious....
Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe View Post
I found it tedious, also, which is why I waited 2 years to try it again ... John — here's an idea: how about you take the lead in deciding what the 2015 categories will be? You can poll or whatever else you want to do.
John's answer seemed non-committal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
...Personally, I would pick the last set of categories. But as I don't think it would be very democratic, I Won't dictate.

I say we do nothing right now, if there is enough of a consenses that we should do something, we do it in september, when everyone is back from summer break.

At a minimum, a little more discusion seems necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe View Post
I realize you wouldn't dictate, which is why I asked if you would like to spearhead this undertaking. Let me know if you're interested....
Darzin has shown quite a bit of initiative throughout this thread, as typified by this response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazrin View Post
I would prefer a vote to make sure we have some good buy-in, which hopefully will help participation. I made my proposal in post #25, but here is the recap:

Since nobody wants to redo the category nominations we did in 2012; let's have 3 simultaneous, multiple choice polls that cover most of the categories nominated in 2012. The three votes would be split into General, Non-Fiction Friendly and Fiction categories so that we will have a good variety throughout the year. Additional details in the spoiler.

Spoiler:
Preselected Category: No vote needed since everyone seems to like this category.
January: Second Chance (All the runners-up from last year) - Placed in January so that way we don't need nominations during the holidays and can just have the vote which can be extended since people may be busier than normal.

Vote 1 - General Categories: Top 4 will be selected.
  • Award Winners (choose your own award)
  • Banned/Challenged Books (someone had a problem with this book somewhere)
  • Classics (choose your own definition of "classic")
  • Contemporary Books ("newer" books, any source)
  • Foreign (originally non-English)
  • MR Author (especially if we can find an author who would provide a copy of their book for discussion and discuss it with us)
  • Patricia Clark Memorial Library (celebrate our own wonderful resource!)
  • Free-For-All
  • Lottery (volunteer or winner provides a list for selection, see Literary club rotating nominations. If no one wants to provide a list, this becomes a free-for-all month.)
  • Short Stories or Essays (specific short story or a collection which could be an anthology, a collection, or a web list of "best stories", etc.)
  • Independently published books
  • Personal Favorites (what is yours? Maybe limit nominations to 1 book, but don't require a second/third?)
Vote 2 - Non-Fiction Friendly Categories: Top 3 will be selected
  • Non-Fiction (anything non-fiction)
  • Science
  • Philosophy
  • Biography/Memoirs
  • Travel/Adventure (could be fiction or non-Fiction)
  • History
  • Mythology (and folk tales, etc)
  • Humor (could be fiction or non-fiction)
Vote 3 - Probably Going to be Fiction Categories: Top 4 will be selected, see note about SF/F.
  • Romance
  • Crime (fiction or non-fiction)
  • Mystery (cozy mysteries, etc.)
  • Thriller/Suspense (hard to be cozy with the action and/or tension in here)
  • Historical Fiction
  • Graphic Novels
  • Young Adult
    Note: Final selection will be limited to at most 2 of the following (to prevent saturation):
  • Speculative Fiction (catch-all for fantasy, science fiction, horror, steampunk, etc.)
  • Science Fiction (general sci-fi, Space opera, post-apocalyptic, etc.)
  • Fantasy (magic is generally involved)
  • Urban Fantasy (and paranormal or other contemporary magic.)
  • Horror (Psychological, physical, supernatural, choose your own flavor.)

Final list would be arranged by a volunteer (I will do it if no one else wants to) in a way that makes "sense", similar to what was done for the 2012 categories.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
I don't think we need a vote. I think my list will do just fine. All we need to do is reorder it if need be.

This is the order I propose.

Jan - Anything Goes
Feb - Romance
Mar - Science Fiction
Apr - Humor
May - Nonfiction
Jun - Modern Fiction (year 2000 onward)
Jul - Classic
Aug - Not Modern Fiction (year 1999 backwards)
Sep - Fantasy
Oct - Mystery
Nov - MR Library
Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles)
I'd vote for this list with one exception. MR Library should be dropped to add Thriller/Suspense. MR Library nominations could be made in any month and category.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:57 PM   #42
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Who's running the show?
Let me preface this with .... WHAT AM I THINKING!?! Ok, now that that is over with...

This has drug on a while and I think we would all like it to wrap up so I can put up a poll with our options. Since there are only a few suggestions here, why don't we vote on them all at once and get it over with. Unless I hear otherwise I will try to put the following poll up tomorrow (it might be delayed until the weekend):

Quote:
Poll: Do we want to keep the same categories as 2013/2014 for 2015?
  1. Yes, they are good as-is, see post 14 for the list.
  2. No, let's vote on the current categories to get rid of least favorite ones. Posts 7, 8, 13.
  3. No, let's get more non-fiction, posts 10, 11.
  4. No, let's use Jon/JSWolf's categories, posts 28, 37, 40.
  5. No, let's use Dazrin's suggestion, posts 25, 27, 39.
  6. No, let's do something else. Explain your response below.
I could take the lead if items B or E are chosen and D is pretty much decided, but would need someone else to take the lead if C or F are chosen. I am not a huge non-fiction fan (0 pages read this year), so that isn't my forte. As for item F, I would make the voting VISIBLE so that if the last item wins we can out whoever votes for it and they could take the lead.

I, obviously, prefer E. It would let us keep the current categories we like (by voting for them again) and could be done very quickly (3 simultaneous votes). While I don't mind Jon's list, I think he is overestimating how many people want some genres given how rarely I see people talking about them in the "Let's get some action going" thread (romance especially) and I personally like some categories that are more open to interpretation (like award winners or short stories).

(What have I gotten myself into?!)
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Old 08-15-2014, 12:39 AM   #43
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[QUOTE=Dazrin;2897198]...Unless I hear otherwise I will try to put the following poll up tomorrow (it might be delayed until the weekend).../QUOTE]

If there are no objections, that sounds good to me.
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:13 AM   #44
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I know it would win if we had a vote. Besides, we can nominate books that are not old and moldy because modern books can be classics too.
If modern books can be nominated in "Classics", than I assume it is OK to nominate non-fiction (that was written before 1999) for "Not Modern Fiction (year 1999 backwards)"?
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:14 AM   #45
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Can we add "Use previous categories." to the poll?
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