Kindle adds Page Numbers (and more)

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

Citations, citations, citations.

I would only stick to physical books for my PhD work as long as ebooks lack some sort of standardized pagination system. "Locations" won't work for my dissertation unless all the examiners happen to have Kindles and to have bought all the cited books in Kindle format. Page numbers tied to print editions they can check in the library - now that will work for academia.

Yeah, but if the hardcover and paperback versions don't match page for page, then what's the point?

It forces everyone in a book club or class to all buy the same version.

[ChrisChillin]

I don't care about a book club - I'm talking about research.

With academic texts, there is usually only either a hardcover or paperback version or, if both, the page numbers will still match so there is no confusion with citations. A Kindle edition with locations, or an ePub edition in which the page numbers vary from the print book, makes checking citations an unreliable process. That is the biggest hindrance to increasing ebook sales of scholarly works.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

Citations, citations, citations.

A very good point I'd overlooked.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

That is the biggest hindrance to increasing ebook sales of scholarly works.

And I don't care about scholarly works.

To each his own.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

With academic texts, there is usually only either a hardcover or paperback version or, if both, the page numbers will still match so there is no confusion with citations.

That's fine for non-lit classes. But if you're reading a novel, the page numbers will only match if everyone is reading the same version.

[caleb72]

I think I'd probably use the page number function myself. I actually prefer just to see the % sign, but if I want to jump around the book there's less digits to enter to navigate to a page number than there is to type a location - so page numbering gets my vote.

I'm assuming that with page numbering turned on the go to function uses page numbers?

I don't know if I'll bother with any of the other functions added though.

Regards
Caleb

[DiapDealer]

I'm assuming that with page numbering turned on the go to function uses page numbers?

I haven't heard anyone mention this yet. There is no "turning on" of the page numbering. If available in the ebook, the page numbers will show beside the locations when the "menu" button is pressed (otherwise, all you're going to see while reading is the % bar). I'm not sure if the "go to" function will add the ability to use locations and/or pages. We'll have to wait for some adventurous soul to answer this question (if it hasn't been answered somewhere already).

[queentess]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

And I don't care about scholarly works.

Good for you?

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

That's fine for non-lit classes. But if you're reading a novel, the page numbers will only match if everyone is reading the same version.

Indeed. How do you normally talk about the book in a bookclub? I mention the type of book I'm reading (hardback vs trade vs mmpb) and the page number. (It will also vary some by publisher, but you really only run into that when it's an older book.) That's usually enough to let everyone know where you are in the book and what you're about to discuss.

[ChrisChillin]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

That's fine for non-lit classes. But if you're reading a novel, the page numbers will only match if everyone is reading the same version.

Your point being? That's a problem for literature studies irrespective of throwing e-versions into the mix. You asked the question...

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Then what's the point of having page numbers?

...and I have provided an answer. This is a benefit for the vast majority of academic work. Why keep pushing back and asking "what's the point?" There is one, and many of us are happy for it.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

A Kindle edition with locations, or an ePub edition in which the page numbers vary from the print book, makes checking citations an unreliable process.

Keep in mind that Kindle apps don't handle pagination the same way as some other apps. "Locations" are not flexible and don't change based on things like margins, font size or screen size; "Location 1840" is always going to point to the same exact spot in the text.

I can see how flexible pagination is a disaster for academic purposes. But how is citing an ebook edition with a fixed location index be any different than citing a book that was issued in, say, two paper formats? Or in multiple editions?

After all, it's not like each and every paper edition of a book is going to have the exact same pagination. And if it's an article, you're probably going to work off of a PDF anyway, where pagination will be maintained.

While this may be necessary as a stop-gap, this is actually a step backwards in terms of scholarly use of ebooks. A better solution is for ebook apps to give the reader a choice between a fixed location (e.g. Kindle) or flexible pagination, rather than index it off of paper editions.

[ChrisChillin]

Kali Yuga,

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Keep in mind that Kindle apps don't handle pagination the same way as some other apps. "Locations" are not flexible and don't change based on things like margins, font size or screen size...

Indeed. That would be okay for academic work if access to Kindles was fairly universal; i.e., if all my dissertation examiners either owned one or could go to their university library and find that a) the library had Kindles to rent and b) the Kindles are loaded with the sources I cited.

I can see how flexible pagination is a disaster for academic purposes. But how is citing an ebook edition with a fixed location index be any different than citing a book that was issued in, say, two paper formats? Or in multiple editions?

Not different in principle, although it does add another layer of complication. If I cite a particular edition of a book that has had several releases, the examiner could go between libraries until he or she finds the edition I cited. If I cite a Kindle edition, under the current locations-only structure the examiner would have to acquire both a Kindle and the Kindle edition of the book to easily follow the citation.

After all, it's not like each and every paper edition of a book is going to have the exact same pagination.

See what I said above. Academic works typically are released either just as hard or paperbacks or, if both, the pagination remains the same. E.g., if I cite Dale Allison's Resurrecting Jesus: The Earliest Christian Tradition and its Interpreters, the page number would be the same for the hardcover and the paperback. If there were a Kindle edition of this book available, and that was the version I cited, then the notation would be non-standardized and confusing. With the introduction of page numbers to the Kindle file, that problem goes away.

And if it's an article, you're probably going to work off of a PDF anyway, where pagination will be maintained.

Indeed. I haven't printed a journal article in months!

A better solution is for ebook apps to give the reader a choice between a fixed location (e.g. Kindle) or flexible pagination, rather than index it off of paper editions.

I'm not convinced. Not everyone is going to have access to the digital edition. Not everyone will want the digital edition. You have to ensure coherence between the physical and the digital versions of the book for ebooks to work in academic settings.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

...and I have provided an answer. This is a benefit for the vast majority of academic work. Why keep pushing back and asking "what's the point?" There is one, and many of us are happy for it.

Are you some kind of time traveler? In case it escaped your attention, I asked that question BEFORE you gave your answer.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

Your point being? That's a problem for literature studies irrespective of throwing e-versions into the mix. You asked the question...

My point is that if you're reading a novel, the page numbers will only match if everyone is reading the same version.

[gollu]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

My point is that if you're reading a novel, the page numbers will only match if everyone is reading the same version.

So the book version is stated as well.
I am another one that doesn't get why you continue arguing, tubemonkey.

[koland]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

Citations, citations, citations.

I would only stick to physical books for my PhD work as long as ebooks lack some sort of standardized pagination system. "Locations" won't work for my dissertation unless all the examiners happen to have Kindles and to have bought all the cited books in Kindle format. Page numbers tied to print editions they can check in the library - now that will work for academia.

For citation purposes, you should use the location (as has been adopted by a couple of standards now), not the page number of the corresponding edition (unless you go grab that edition and double check the text you are looking at ... it can be different between e- and paper editions for many reasons, plus a page can split differently, so that you are looking at the end of one page and the beginning of another at the same time on the Kindle.

As for your professors checking your citations - I suspect one or all will have a Kindle or could ask for yours to do the research, especially if they didn't happen to have that one book. Or, you could just loan it to them at the end, when you turn everything in and have them check the numbers they want using Kindle for PC/MAC.