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Old 10-17-2017, 02:20 PM   #61
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I find the argument that ebooks “offer more” a bit strange. The fact that ebooks “offer more” has already been paid for with the purchase of a device that can read the book. The “more” is also ultimately supplied by the device manufacturer that is compensated separately.
There is no publisher except for Amazon that I know of that has contributed to ebook technology in such a way that it would justify pricing ebooks the same or only slightly lower (or even higher!!!) than paper books which are self-contained commodities that require no further investment.
It's a bit like saying a video game on a video game console should cost more than an arcade machine because the video game on your console offers you more (save games, portability, online functionality etc) and your arcade machine is plug and play but does nothing except for playing that one particular game.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:27 PM   #62
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Thanks for replying Steve. I was hoping you would actually have a source. I did do a quick search on overdrive for about 4 Amazon imprint titles and didn't find a single hit, though that is hardly definitive. Perhaps rather than being a particular Amazon anti-Library policy they simply don't like to deal with Overdrive. Which doesn't really make a lot of sense since they seem to co-operate with Overdrive in lending books in Kindle formats in the US. Perhaps there will be someone reading who is better informed than either of us and able to share.
Not Steve and the only thing my reply you quoted had to do with Steve's post was posting what little info I have on the Amazon/Library thing.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:34 PM   #63
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It is what it is. This is one of those topics where it is based on user preference now and there is no right or wrong. I loved paperbacks when I was younger. Loved looking at the shelves and deciding what I wanted to buy. But times changed and I have a shelf full of paper books but would like to use that space for other stuff. I like ebooks and have even bought some of my old favorites and am getting rid of my paper one's. I also have had bad vision since I was 9 and now have to wear bifocals so the options of fonts size and boldness etc. Is nice Yes ebooks could be cheaper but I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon.

I also do not blame people who either don't want to get into e-reading or have gone back to paper. Again paper books are cheaper. You can find tons of hardcover books that were new last year for under 5 bucks today. So I can see the appeal of that. Also some people don't want to spend money on a device to read (e-reader) or deal with short battery life on tablets. So it is not surprising that many are migrating back to paper or not getting Into e-reading at all. The journey is all the same in the end afterall. Not a big deal for me. E-readers and ebooks are going nowhere so I'm good.

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Old 10-17-2017, 03:08 PM   #64
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I value ebooks more than I do print books. It really is that simple. So I consider myself lucky that I can usually buy the ebook for just a little bit less than the price of its print counterpart.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:44 PM   #65
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The biggest thing for me, is that you don't really "own" your eBook. You are very restricted in what you can do with one. Want to give it to a friend after you're done with it? Nope, can't do that. Want to move from one eReader platform to another? Sorry, incompatible formats and DRM. A provider like Amazon could remove your access to your eBooks (technically very easy for them to do, but they'd face customer backlash for sure!)

So Mr. eBook Publisher/Supplier, if you want me to accept your restrictions, don't expect me to happily pay the same or more for your product than for a paper book that has NONE of your restrictions. Sure, I could cram 1000 books onto my eReader. But since I only read one book at a time, who cares? Sure, I could have near instant access to a new eBook. But I've already got several feet of shelf space taken up by books in queue to be read. I don't need "instant".

There are certainly benefits to eBooks over paper books too. But for me, the negatives outweigh the positives when you take the retail prices charged into account. Free library eBooks, sale eBooks, independently published eBooks and the like will grab my interest (in other words, "the inexpensive ones"). But a full-priced eBook that equals or exceeds the cost of it's paper sibling, all the while full of restrictions and DRM? Not very often. If you want to give us less, you have to charge us less. "Full priced eBook" means I'll buy a "used paperback copy" instead, 95% of the time.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by haertig View Post
The biggest thing for me, is that you don't really "own" your eBook. You are very restricted in what you can do with one. Want to give it to a friend after you're done with it? Nope, can't do that. Want to move from one eReader platform to another? Sorry, incompatible formats and DRM. A provider like Amazon could remove your access to your eBooks (technically very easy for them to do, but they'd face customer backlash for sure!)

So Mr. eBook Publisher/Supplier, if you want me to accept your restrictions, don't expect me to happily pay the same or more for your product than for a paper book that has NONE of your restrictions. Sure, I could cram 1000 books onto my eReader. But since I only read one book at a time, who cares? Sure, I could have near instant access to a new eBook. But I've already got several feet of shelf space taken up by books in queue to be read. I don't need "instant".

There are certainly benefits to eBooks over paper books too. But for me, the negatives outweigh the positives when you take the retail prices charged into account. Free library eBooks, sale eBooks, independently published eBooks and the like will grab my interest (in other words, "the inexpensive ones"). But a full-priced eBook that equals or exceeds the cost of it's paper sibling, all the while full of restrictions and DRM? Not very often. If you want to give us less, you have to charge us less. "Full priced eBook" means I'll buy a "used paperback copy" instead, 95% of the time.
Hi. I only do on sale and free ebooks. I do have a huge TBR.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:11 PM   #67
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The biggest thing for me, is that you don't really "own" your eBook. You are very restricted in what you can do with one. Want to give it to a friend after you're done with it? Nope, can't do that. Want to move from one eReader platform to another? Sorry, incompatible formats and DRM.
DRM is not a problem for anyone with moderate technical know-how. I've bought over a hundred books from Amazon, and they are all safely, locally stored. I'll never lose access to them, and given Calibre's capabilities, I can convert them to HTML, ePub, etc, and read them anywhere I want.

If your objection to DRM is a principled, philosophical one, then it makes no difference whether DRM-removal is feasible. However, you pointed to specific drawbacks of DRM schemes, which leads me to believe you object for pragmatic reasons. In that case, DRM shouldn't count as a downside of ebooks, unless you abhor fiddling with a with a few plugins and software that allow such removal.
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:12 PM   #68
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DRM is not a problem for anyone with moderate technical know-how.
I didn't say I couldn't/wouldn't remove DRM from books I have purchased. But the publishers set their eBook retail prices quite high, with the plan/expectation that customers can't remove DRM. Actually, most customers can't. And possibly in the future, ALL customers can't. If KFX and the newer ADE DRM's were forced onto ALL eBooks right now, that would be the end of DRM removal (for the time being - the cat and mouse game would continue however, and the status might change again and again).
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:24 PM   #69
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Not Steve and the only thing my reply you quoted had to do with Steve's post was posting what little info I have on the Amazon/Library thing.
My apologies. I must have had a few too many before posting. Either that, or my eyesight is worse than I thought.

Last edited by darryl; 10-17-2017 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:27 PM   #70
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That was actually an integral part of the value proposition of ebooks when Amazon rolled out the Kindle. Amazon used to subsidize large numbers of titles in order to entice customers to adopt the technology. But thanks to struggles with the big publishing houses, and the influence of Apple, this has gone away.
Actually, that turns out not to be the case. Amazon subsidized a small percentage of name books, then pushed cheap indie books. This went away when Amazon stopped having any competitors that they were worried about. Once the anti-trust suit convinced Apple it just wasn't worth it, Sony went bye-bye and B&N proved to be inept, Amazon had no reason to subsidize cheap books. Thus, they were hunky dory with the agency model. The indies have found out that Amazon isn't quite the benevolent company they assumed it was, as well.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:26 PM   #71
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AFAIK their [Amazon] print books are available to libraries...
Publishers have no power to stop a public library from buying a physical book.

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I was hoping you would actually have a source.
My source is me. I've never found any.

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Perhaps rather than being a particular Amazon anti-Library policy they simply don't like to deal with Overdrive.
I just picked, as an exercise, this "#1 Amazon Charts bestseller:"

Sullivan, Beneath a Scarlet Sky

This shows you that libraries are buying it in paper:

http://charlotte.delco.lib.pa.us/sea...ORT=D&2%2C2%2C

As you would have expected, I can't find the eBook on Overdrive. But besides that, using the Calibre lending libraries plug-in to search for library eBooks, I'm not finding it on the Cloud Library (formerly 3M), Axis 360, or RBdigital collections to which I have access.

A few months ago a relative recommended another Amazon published title to my wife Barbara, and I could not get it for her as a library eBook despite my slightly crazy, but legitimate, collection of library cards (Brooklyn, many Pennsylvania, one in New Jersey, two military). She did get it as a paper book from one of the libraries in our county. Unfortunately for purposes of providing evidence that Amazon's eBook operation boycotts public libraries, it wasn't memorable enough for either our us to recall the title.

I do have web access to the Jeff Bezos-owned Washington Post via the Brooklyn library (and probably some of the others). So the problem isn't the man, but rather the Amazon company.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:35 PM   #72
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This thread really surprises me. The publishers are pulling off a huge scam and people are buying into it all over the place but I didn't think people in this forum would buy into it.

The AAP counts books from major and a few minor publishers, most of which have increased their prices on ebooks so their ebook sales are down. Those are the numbers they publish and the news picks it up and reports it not understanding that most ebooks are either self published or from publishers not counted by the AAP.

You guys already know this. I learned about it in here, primarily. Why are you suddenly forgetting about it? I'm tempted to try to sell you guys some beachfront property in Phoenix except most of you have probably already bought some.

Barry
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:41 PM   #73
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This thread really surprises me. The publishers are pulling off a huge scam and people are buying into it all over the place but I didn't think people in this forum would buy into it.

The AAP counts books from major and a few minor publishers, most of which have increased their prices on ebooks so their ebook sales are down. Those are the numbers they publish and the news picks it up and reports it not understanding that most ebooks are either self published or from publishers not counted by the AAP.

You guys already know this. I learned about it in here, primarily. Why are you suddenly forgetting about it? I'm tempted to try to sell you guys some beachfront property in Phoenix except most of you have probably already bought some.

Barry
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:13 PM   #74
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Publishers have no power to stop a public library from buying a physical book.

My source is me. I've never found any.



I just picked, as an exercise, this "#1 Amazon Charts bestseller:"

Sullivan, Beneath a Scarlet Sky

This shows you that libraries are buying it in paper:

http://charlotte.delco.lib.pa.us/sea...ORT=D&2%2C2%2C

As you would have expected, I can't find the eBook on Overdrive. But besides that, using the Calibre lending libraries plug-in to search for library eBooks, I'm not finding it on the Cloud Library (formerly 3M), Axis 360, or RBdigital collections to which I have access.

A few months ago a relwhich generation kindleative recommended another Amazon published title to my wife Barbara, and I could not get it for her as a library eBook despite my slightly crazy, but legitimate, collection of library cards (Brooklyn, many Pennsylvania, one in New Jersey, two military). She did get it as a paper book from one of the libraries in our county. Unfortunately for purposes of providing evidence that Amazon's eBook operation boycotts public libraries, it wasn't memorable enough for either our us to recall the title.

I do have web access to the Jeff Bezos-owned Washington Post via the Brooklyn library (and probably some of the others). So the problem isn't the man, but rather the Amazon company.
@Steve (I got it right this time!). So far the evidence such as it is supports the hypothesis that Amazon's ebooks are not available in libraries through overdrive or any of the other players. But the evidence says nothing about why. We can only speculate. You could be correct that Amazon's ebook operation is boycotting public libraries. Then again, perhaps overdrive and others who provide the infrastructure for libraries to lend ebooks are boycotting Amazon. Or perhaps it is simply a case of none of the parties involved have been interested in making an arrangement. I would not bet against you being correct. Amazon could take the view that it has more to lose from making ebooks available in public libraries than it has to gain, though this is not necessarily the case.

Any librarians or others reading this thread who can throw some light on this? As I said, a boycott by Amazon is not impossible, nor am I convinced it is the case.

Last edited by darryl; 10-17-2017 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:19 PM   #75
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I didn't say I couldn't/wouldn't remove DRM from books I have purchased. But the publishers set their eBook retail prices quite high, with the plan/expectation that customers can't remove DRM. Actually, most customers can't. And possibly in the future, ALL customers can't. If KFX and the newer ADE DRM's were forced onto ALL eBooks right now, that would be the end of DRM removal (for the time being - the cat and mouse game would continue however, and the status might change again and again).
Macmillan and some of Simon & Schuster's divisions sell DRM-free ebooks for the same price as other publishers. I've never really understood why the Agency 5 have an adversarial position with Amazon, yet require Amazon Kindle owners lock in all of their purchases with Amazon.
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