Informal English usage and possible translation issues

[haertig]

Originally Posted by John F

I thought that teachers used "class" when addressing students

In my experience, using "class" was the friendly way to address students. Using "people" was the scolding and controlling way. Which is probably why I am not terribly receptive to issybird's suggestion to use that word. We all have different life experiences that determine our interpretation of things. Which just reinforces my point about "majority rule". If I find myself in a locale where it is common to address a group as "People", I will start doing that. Because then it would be considered the common, normal and accepted term. I could point out to others that I find that word offensive with connotations of scolding, but what's the point? Nobody would understand, or care. So I shouldn't take offense at it. I should just adopt this common term (for the locale) myself and be done with it.

[theducks]

I was thinking it was going to be the teacher clip from MIB

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Hmm. I take it you're a man. There's no way it would not feel offensive if you're a woman.

I honestly have to disagree with that statement. Possibly in your location women may be offended by the word "guys". But not anywhere that I've been.

My wife uses "guys" all the time. Maybe more so than I do. She might be addressing her nursing staff, or the ice hockey team that she is captain of, or any random group. Doesn't matter - it's always "guys". We live in Colorado (central USA).

My daughter also uses "guys" much more than anything else. She could be addressing her free diving buddies, the fencing class she teaches, rock climbers she instructs, or her swimming class students. All of these groups are mixed sex. And she lives in Hawaii (central Pacific Ocean). Definitely different cultures between her area and our area. But "guys" is the norm in both places when people speak of groups. (Rock climbing is not a common sport in Hawaii, nor is swordplay for that matter, but she's always been a leading edge person.)

In my experience, "guys" is the word that is used everywhere, with nobody ever taking offense to it. True, I have never been to Estonia, although I would love to visit the Baltic States sometime. Pictures I have seen are beautiful. Don't know if I'll ever get there though. But I will take your advice to heart if I even do make it, and not use the word "guys" to describe a group. You always want to respect the cultural norms of a place you are visiting.

But if someone wants to push "guys" as the newest word that we have to avoid here in the US, I'm afraid that this endeavor may be a difficult hill for them to climb. It's pretty entrenched in everyday language in my experience, and not generally considered offensive in the slightest by anybody.

[Sirtel]

While "guys" might feel mildly offensive to some people, it has been used here by several posters and no one has made a fuss about it. The word that caused the current outcry and this thread, was "men". I have never seen anyone addressing a mixed group as "men" either here or elsewhere, by native English speakers or others. Moreover, the poster used it twice in two different threads and when another poster asked them (politely) not to use it anymore, they just replied "Let's chill". That seemed pretty provocative to me. Not like someone who used the word "men" innocently - why not apologize and explain in that case? It must have been clear people found it offensive.

I guess it's possible the poster is from a culture where men and women really do use different forums and didn't expect to actually meet women here... who knows, as they didn't explain what they meant by "men".

[Apache]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You All is a southern US term. It's usually shortened to Y'all.

Y'all is a contraction of You All. I have never heard a southern person say You All. The only times I ever heard You All used was in movies or on television. Some actor pretending to be southern with an atrocious accent.
Apache

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The word that caused the current outcry and this thread, was "men".

That was true of the first three posts in this thread. But then the thread got redirected to the word "guys" right after that.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by haertig

That was true of the first three posts in this thread. But then the thread got redirected to the word "guys" right after that.

Heh. Must have slipped my notice.

Anyway, I meant specifically the word "men" as used by that unfortunate poster when I commented on how any woman would feel offended by such an address in a mixed group. "Guys" I have seen several times by now and while it still feels somewhat weird to me, I've also noticed not many people have taken offense, so it must be common in some English-speaking areas at least. "Men", OTOH, caused an universal reaction here.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Apache

Y'all is a contraction of You All. I have never heard a southern person say You All.

Very true. I can't say that I remember hearing "You all" without the contraction much either. But I have heard some people say "Y'all all". And even "Hey everybody, y'all all come over here!" That's a very friendly sounding way of talking, to my ear at least. Technically, it does sound like something that might have come from The Department of Redundancy Department though.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The word that caused the current outcry and this thread, was "men".

Originally Posted by haertig

That was true of the first three posts in this thread. But then the thread got redirected to the word "guys" right after that.

You must not have read the first post carefully enough. "men" and "guys" have had a part from the beginning. This thread was started to find whether some language has a word analogous to a sense of "guys", technically male, but commonly meant as mixed and there is at least one translation instance that translates it to English as "men". I specifically wrote that the mixed gender use of "guys" in English is acceptable in at least some circles in at least some contexts, which left open the possibilities that it is either always acceptable or that it is sometimes not acceptable. It turns out to be the latter.

And completely on topic posts have continued despite the various tangents and divergences. There has been no redirection (yet).

[slm]

I didn't realize this thread was a diversion from a thread in which a poster addressed the readers as "men." Can someone provide a link to that thread?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by slm

I didn't realize this thread was a diversion from a thread in which a poster addressed the readers as "men." Can someone provide a link to that thread?

There were two, actually:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=358487
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=357805

[haertig]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

I specifically wrote that the mixed gender use of "guys" in English is acceptable in at least some circles in at least some contexts, which left open the possibilities that it is either always acceptable or that it is sometimes not acceptable.

Does this not open the thread up to a discussion regarding the use of the word "guys" then? I do not see your words above in any way limiting the discussion to the word "men". Quite the opposite actually.

So this thread is about the usage of "guys" OR the usage of "men". ANd that is the way I interpreted it. My use of the word "redirect" was in error, your intention all along was to talk about both words. I'm fine with that. That's exactly how I perceived it. I just stated my sentence to @Sirtel incorrectly.

I should not have said "... the thread got redirected to the word 'guys'". I should have said, "This thread was always about the word 'guys' (and 'men' too)". Sorry. My error.

[BelleZora]

Originally Posted by Apache

Y'all is a contraction of You All. I have never heard a southern person say You All. The only times I ever heard You All used was in movies or on television. Some actor pretending to be southern with an atrocious accent.
Apache

My southern mother said 'you all'. She thought it was classier than y'all.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I think both are a cultural niche. I don't see either widespread here, nor remember it when I was in England.

Regional variations
In England it's rude to refer to adult women as girls, even if they are young. etc.

Unless it is an regional usage or a recent trend I have never heard that calling a group of women "girls" in an informal situation being labelled rude, at least in Yorkshire. In a more formal situation "ladies" would probably be used as more appropriate..

"Guys" for a mixed group, I have heard but that was only at work in the decade before I retired. It was more usual to address a mixed group as people.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Starting a post with 'Guys' is hardly objectionable at all, unlike starting it with 'Men'.

Only for the last couple hundred years. "Man" and "Men" once had a meaning similar to "person". During the English Civil War a pamphlet was published by John Lilburne an in it he refers to "male men" and "female men".