ebooks made with Sigil opening at different places when opened on Kindle

Gregg Bell · 11-04-2016, 06:37 PM

A friend of mine downloaded my ebook Man of God and wrote me the attachment.

So I started testing my other three books by downloading the mobis from KDP and sideloading them to my Kindle. (I can't buy them any more.)

The Man of God book opened near the very end. The other three opened in the middle of the TOC, which is near the very front.

Most ebooks I buy on Kindle open at Chapter One. How can I set that up in Sigil so that happens with mine?

Thanks.

DiapDealer · 11-04-2016, 07:50 PM

Getting Kindlebooks to consistently open where you want them to is deep dark magic that spawns page after page of advice that works for some and not for others. To make matters worse, the start point sometimes actually gets altered by Amazon after the book has been uploaded.

While much of the advice may be able to be experimented with when using Sigil, none of the methods are Sigil-specific--it's just standard epub stuff. Best to search the Workshop/Kindle forums for discussions on what to do to your epub to make Amazon maybe honor your wishes with regard to starting points.

Good luck!

st_albert · 11-04-2016, 07:53 PM

Hi, Greg,

This is a perennial problem with regard to how to control where Kindle books open. I don't think it's a Sigil problem per se however.

If you look in the Kindle Formats forum, you will find endless threads and proposed solutions, none of which (AFAIK) are general solutions. If you can find the answer, you'll be a hero until Amazon changes its algorithm (again?)

You'd think, if you are taking the path epub -> mobi via kindlegen, that it would be controlled by the "text" semantic, but apparently not.

IIRC there once was a theory that the Kindle book would open at the first chapter after the HTML TOC that contains text. But that doesn't always hold true either.

My take on it is that it is determined by KDP, and the book builder has little to no influence on it.

Just my $0.02

Albert

st_albert · 11-04-2016, 07:56 PM

Diap beat me to it!

Albert

Gregg Bell · 11-04-2016, 08:39 PM

Okay, Diap & Albert. Thank you. You eased my mind. I did go back and look at the code at the start of Chapter 22 and it was identical (as I knew it would be) to all the other code at the start of the other chapters. I figure readers who buy an ebook will know how to get to Chapter One. Thanks a lot for the feedback and I will check the Workshop.

Doitsu · 11-05-2016, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

Okay, Diap & Albert. Thank you. You eased my mind. I did go back and look at the code at the start of Chapter 22 and it was identical (as I knew it would be) to all the other code at the start of the other chapters. I figure readers who buy an ebook will know how to get to Chapter One. Thanks a lot for the feedback and I will check the Workshop.

FYI, KindleGen supports at least the following guide items: cover, toc and text. The cover and toc guide items will be automatically added by Sigil if you select Tool > Add Cover or Tool > Table Of Contents > Create HTML Table Of Contents.
To define the beginning of a book, right-click the (X)HTML file of the first chapter in the Book Browser and select Add Semantics... > Text.

To quickly check these guide items, open content.opf and have a look at the guide section at the end. If all three items have been defined, it should look like this:

Code:

<guide>
   <reference type="cover" title="Cover" href="Text/cover.xhtml"/>
   <reference type="toc" title="Table of Content" href="Text/TOC.xhtml"/>
   <reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/Chapter1.xhtml"/>
</guide>

However, as DiapDealer has already pointed out, Amazon might alter the SRL (=Start Reading Location) after you've uploaded your book.

Notjohn · 11-06-2016, 06:39 AM

My experience is that the safest route is to put the SRL ("text" in epub-speak) exactly where Amazon wants to see it, on the first page of the first chapter. I found that was the only way to stop my books (uploaded as epubs to the KDP) opening in the middle of the table of contents. (If they had only opened at the beginning of the TOC, I wouldn't have minded!)

I haven't tinkered with this since the New Look in the Look Inside sample came into play, because it only affects some of my books and I don't understand why. (When I did a count, a month or so ago, I think eight of my books were opening at Chapter One on the Look Inside, and eighteen were opening, as before, at the cover.) I have noticed that when my books open (in Look Inside) at the first chapter, the chapter title is hidden above the first-page view. But when one of Hitch's books opens there, the chapter title is visible. But we all knew that she is smarter than I.

As for opening at or near the end, I've never heard of that! Certainly Amazon would like to know about it, because of its potential effect on Kindle Unlimited reads. (Or has Amazon fixed that?)

Gregg Bell · 11-08-2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

FYI, KindleGen supports at least the following guide items: cover, toc and text. The cover and toc guide items will be automatically added by Sigil if you select Tool > Add Cover or Tool > Table Of Contents > Create HTML Table Of Contents.
To define the beginning of a book, right-click the (X)HTML file of the first chapter in the Book Browser and select Add Semantics... > Text.

Thanks Doitsu. I actually already did that, but I just bought my book and in my Kindle it opened at the cover so I'm fine with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

To quickly check these guide items, open content.opf and have a look at the guide section at the end. If all three items have been defined, it should look like this:

Code:

<guide>
   <reference type="cover" title="Cover" href="Text/cover.xhtml"/>
   <reference type="toc" title="Table of Content" href="Text/TOC.xhtml"/>
   <reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/Chapter1.xhtml"/>
</guide>

I looked at it and this is what it shows:

Code:

<guide>
    <reference href="Text/TitlePage.xhtml" title="Title Page" type="title-page"/>
    <reference href="Text/TOC.xhtml" title="Table of Content" type="toc"/>
    <reference href="Text/Chapter01.html" title="Text" type="text"/>
  </guide>

So this is interesting because it's different but also because now my Amazon product page has no cover. Oh well. It's always something.
[QUOTE]

Gregg Bell · 11-08-2016, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

My experience is that the safest route is to put the SRL ("text" in epub-speak) exactly where Amazon wants to see it, on the first page of the first chapter. I found that was the only way to stop my books (uploaded as epubs to the KDP) opening in the middle of the table of contents. (If they had only opened at the beginning of the TOC, I wouldn't have minded!)

I haven't tinkered with this since the New Look in the Look Inside sample came into play, because it only affects some of my books and I don't understand why. (When I did a count, a month or so ago, I think eight of my books were opening at Chapter One on the Look Inside, and eighteen were opening, as before, at the cover.) I have noticed that when my books open (in Look Inside) at the first chapter, the chapter title is hidden above the first-page view. But when one of Hitch's books opens there, the chapter title is visible. But we all knew that she is smarter than I.

As for opening at or near the end, I've never heard of that! Certainly Amazon would like to know about it, because of its potential effect on Kindle Unlimited reads. (Or has Amazon fixed that?)

Thanks NJ. It's hard to keep up with this stuff. I can see how opening in the middle of the TOC would be a pain. I just checked my latest (which has no cover on the product page!) and the Look Inside opens on the cover!

So now I have to figure out why the book has a cover and the product page doesn't.

Doitsu · 11-08-2016, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

I looked at it and this is what it shows:

Code:

<guide>
    <reference href="Text/TitlePage.xhtml" title="Title Page" type="title-page"/>
    <reference href="Text/TOC.xhtml" title="Table of Content" type="toc"/>
    <reference href="Text/Chapter01.html" title="Text" type="text"/>
  </guide>

KindleGen doesn't do anything with title-page semantics, you might want to use the cover semantics instead for the HMTL page that contains the cover image.

Also check that you have the following metadata entry in content.opf:

Code:

<meta content="cover.jpg" name="cover" />

(Replace cover.jpg with the id of your cover image.)

Otherwise your Kindle book won't have a cover image.

Gregg Bell · 11-08-2016, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

KindleGen doesn't do anything with title-page semantics, you might want to use the cover semantics instead for the HMTL page that contains the cover image.

Also check that you have the following metadata entry in content.opf:

Code:

<meta content="cover.jpg" name="cover" />

(Replace cover.jpg with the id of your cover image.)

Otherwise your Kindle book won't have a cover image.

Thanks Doitsu. I think I just forgot to add a cover in KDP's Step Five.

Notjohn · 11-09-2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

KindleGen doesn't do anything with title-page semantics, you might want to use the cover semantics instead for the HMTL page that contains the cover image.

Also check that you have the following metadata entry in content.opf:

Code:

<meta content="cover.jpg" name="cover" />

(Replace cover.jpg with the id of your cover image.)

Otherwise your Kindle book won't have a cover image.

In my experience, that's where the dread double-cover problem arises, when I pointed to the included cover. (Very few examples to go by, to be sure. I think I did this only once, and that was a trial to see if I could force the downloaded book to open at the cover if I gave it the "semantic" of text. I ripped out both cover and semantic the same day and haven't gone back to that well since.)

Notjohn · 11-09-2016, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

Thanks Doitsu. I think I just forgot to add a cover in KDP's Step Five.

That will do it, every time! But at least you needn't worry about a double cover.

Doitsu · 11-09-2016, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

In my experience, that's where the dread double-cover problem arises, when I pointed to the included cover.

How did you point to the include cover (metadata entry and/or guide entry)?

I ran some tests and found out that book designers might end up with two cover images if the cover page html file contains an image link and text.
Contrary to what I stated in my previous post, it appears that KindleGen does not look for a cover guide item, however, it does look for a cover metadata item. For example:

Code:

<meta name="cover" content="cover.png" />

If a metadata cover item is present, KindleGen will delete the cover html page, but only if it doesn't contain additional text.
If this happens KindleGen/Kindle Previewer will display the following message:

Quote:

Info(prcgen):I1052: Kindle support cover images but does not support cover HTML. Hence using the cover image specified and suppressing cover HTML in content. URL: \OEBPS\Text\cover.xhtml

If this message isn't displayed the book will most likely have two cover pages. (To display KindleGen messages click Compilation Details in Kindle Previewer.)

OTOH, if a book contains a cover page guide item and no cover metadata item, the cover menu item will be grayed out.

Here are the 4 most likely occurring possibilities:

CoverTest1.epub: cover.png [X] cover.xhtml [X] cover guide item [ ] cover.png meta item [X] => OK
CoverTest2.epub: cover.png [X] cover.xhtml + additional text [X] cover guide item [ ] cover.png meta item [X] => 2 cover images
CoverTest3.epub: cover.png [X] cover.xhtml [ ] cover guide item [ ] cover.png meta item [X] => OK
CoverTest4.epub: cover.png [X] cover.xhtml [X] cover guide item [X] cover.png meta item [ ] => cover image menu item disabled

Based on my tests, I'd recommend removing the cover html page (after double-checking that a cover metadata item exists), because it isn't needed.
(If the cover html page was created with Sigil, the cover image metadata entry will be automatically created and won't be deleted if the cover html file is deleted.)

If no cover metadata items exists, right-click the cover image and tick Cover Image.

Notjohn · 11-11-2016, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

How did you point to the include cover (metadata entry and/or guide entry)?

Oh gosh, I think I just used Sigil's semantics tool to label it text. But I may also have put it in the html table of contents.

11-04-2016, 06:37 PM	#1
Gregg Bell Gregg Bell Posts: 2,264 Karma: 3917588 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Itasca, Illinois Device: Kindle Touch 7, Sony PRS300, Fire HD8 Tablet	ebooks made with Sigil opening at different places when opened on Kindle A friend of mine downloaded my ebook Man of God and wrote me the attachment. So I started testing my other three books by downloading the mobis from KDP and sideloading them to my Kindle. (I can't buy them any more.) The Man of God book opened near the very end. The other three opened in the middle of the TOC, which is near the very front. Most ebooks I buy on Kindle open at Chapter One. How can I set that up in Sigil so that happens with mine? Thanks. Attached Thumbnails

11-04-2016, 07:50 PM	#2
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,549 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	Getting Kindlebooks to consistently open where you want them to is deep dark magic that spawns page after page of advice that works for some and not for others. To make matters worse, the start point sometimes actually gets altered by Amazon after the book has been uploaded. While much of the advice may be able to be experimented with when using Sigil, none of the methods are Sigil-specific--it's just standard epub stuff. Best to search the Workshop/Kindle forums for discussions on what to do to your epub to make Amazon maybe honor your wishes with regard to starting points. Good luck! Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-04-2016 at 08:19 PM.

11-06-2016, 06:39 AM	#7
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,515 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	My experience is that the safest route is to put the SRL ("text" in epub-speak) exactly where Amazon wants to see it, on the first page of the first chapter. I found that was the only way to stop my books (uploaded as epubs to the KDP) opening in the middle of the table of contents. (If they had only opened at the beginning of the TOC, I wouldn't have minded!) I haven't tinkered with this since the New Look in the Look Inside sample came into play, because it only affects some of my books and I don't understand why. (When I did a count, a month or so ago, I think eight of my books were opening at Chapter One on the Look Inside, and eighteen were opening, as before, at the cover.) I have noticed that when my books open (in Look Inside) at the first chapter, the chapter title is hidden above the first-page view. But when one of Hitch's books opens there, the chapter title is visible. But we all knew that she is smarter than I. As for opening at or near the end, I've never heard of that! Certainly Amazon would like to know about it, because of its potential effect on Kindle Unlimited reads. (Or has Amazon fixed that?) Last edited by Notjohn; 11-06-2016 at 06:41 AM.

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11-04-2016, 07:53 PM	#3
st_albert Guru Posts: 696 Karma: 150000 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: none	Hi, Greg, This is a perennial problem with regard to how to control where Kindle books open. I don't think it's a Sigil problem per se however. If you look in the Kindle Formats forum, you will find endless threads and proposed solutions, none of which (AFAIK) are general solutions. If you can find the answer, you'll be a hero until Amazon changes its algorithm (again?) You'd think, if you are taking the path epub -> mobi via kindlegen, that it would be controlled by the "text" semantic, but apparently not. IIRC there once was a theory that the Kindle book would open at the first chapter after the HTML TOC that contains text. But that doesn't always hold true either. My take on it is that it is determined by KDP, and the book builder has little to no influence on it. Just my $0.02 Albert

11-04-2016, 07:56 PM	#4
st_albert Guru Posts: 696 Karma: 150000 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: none	Diap beat me to it! Albert

11-04-2016, 08:39 PM	#5
Gregg Bell Gregg Bell Posts: 2,264 Karma: 3917588 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Itasca, Illinois Device: Kindle Touch 7, Sony PRS300, Fire HD8 Tablet	Okay, Diap & Albert. Thank you. You eased my mind. I did go back and look at the code at the start of Chapter 22 and it was identical (as I knew it would be) to all the other code at the start of the other chapters. I figure readers who buy an ebook will know how to get to Chapter One. Thanks a lot for the feedback and I will check the Workshop.

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