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Old 12-13-2007, 08:06 PM   #106
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My Kindle isn't recognized by Windows MobiPocket Reader, but the fact that some Kindle's (only the 1st shipment?) do broadcast their PIDs suggest that Amazon isn't carefully guarding the PID.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:26 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azog View Post
Are you sure about that? I just installed Mobipcoket Reader 6.2 Build 594 (beta), and it sees my Kindle only as a mass-storage device, for which I can get no information (i.e., there is no Properties button which would normally show me the PID) and it doesn't recognize any of the content (Amazon or DRM-free), but I suspect that's due to the AZW filename extension.
I think this was a goof on the part of Amazon. When I got my Kindle (the day after it was announced), I checked to see if my installation of Mobipocket would recognize it. It did. I installed it at least 6 months ago, but it recognized the Kindle.

My best guess is that Amazon was using the Mobipocket software to support the Kindle during testing. They probably added it in a 5.something upgrade, and didn't think to remove it until after I announced that it was recognized.

I recently upgraded to 6.1 build 592, and the Kindle is still recognized. I am not going to test it by deleting the entry.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:44 PM   #108
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I'm running 6.0 build 580. Here's what the properties dialog looks like in Reader.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:45 PM   #109
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Update

I decided to test this, and installed Mobipocket Reader (6.1 build 592) on a different computer. It did not recognize my Kindle. My laptop still does.

I think we need to start looking for older installation files for MobiReader. At some point, they recognized the Kindle.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:15 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azog View Post
Actually it is against the terms of service:

"The conversion service on Your Kindle is meant for the receipt of personal, non-commercial documents only. You may not authorize the sending of documents from automated distribution services."

From the PDF Kindle manual on page 79...
No, what they mean there is that I couldn't set up an automated scheme to sent RSS feeds directly to my Kindle. This says nothing about me manually downloading an RSS feed and then sending that document to my Kindle so I can read it. Even if Amazon also sells that RSS feed, I can still just do it manually and save myself the cost, and it's not against the TOS.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:34 PM   #111
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In the USA, it is against the law to:

1. Copy the Wii Disc (it is heavily encrpyted) and change the region bit on the image to USA and burn it back to a DVD-R

2. Modify the Wii you purchased and Own to play the JPN Wii Fit game you bought in japan.

3. Anything the Manufacture did not intend the system to be used for that involves changing any copyrighted code and/or/to circumvent any restraints on the usage in any way

Our mobi -> awz example here is a parallel to this one. You bought the book, you own the Kindle. The book has been constrained from working on the kindle. You aren't allowed to cirumvent these constraints without violating a very very stupid US law.
Okay, regardless of what is actually legal, can we all agree that #1 is really stupid (and apparently contrary to the traditional copyright "fair use" defense)?

Does this mean that if I buy a DVD, Blu-ray, or HD-DVD disk, that it's illegal for me to rip a copy as an avi and keep it on my hard drive for my personal use? I'm pretty sure that that's precisely the sort of behavior covered under the "fair use" defense.

And if THAT is legal, why can't I re-burn the movie to a disk to watch in a different kind of player, which I also own?

---

However, I'm still not sure that the mobi->azw example is actually illegal as you say. The reason is twofold:
  1. The Kindle ID is available using standard Mobipocket software
  2. Standard Mobipocket booksellers allow you to add any device (including the Kindle) as an "allowed" device to any book.

Unfortunately, it appears that there is one more facet to this, which is that in order for the Kindle to read it, the mobi file must also list Amazon as the publisher.

Can someone (igor?) tell me: if you simply download a mobi book from a Mobipocket bookseller, with the Kindle device # included, then do the following things work?
  1. Use USB to put the file onto the Kindle, keeping the .mobi extension?
  2. Put the file on the Kindle by emailing the mobi file to it via Amazon?

And, mrkai, I'd like to be sure I understand you: is it your position that this technique is against the Kindle TOS and probably illegal, but that you don't actually think it's wrong or immoral?
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:05 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkai View Post
Our mobi -> awz example here is a parallel to this one. You bought the book, you own the Kindle. The book has been constrained from working on the kindle. You aren't allowed to cirumvent these constraints without violating a very very stupid US law.
Your example is related to regional protection and I understand that DRM is larger then copy protection. The vendors feel it is their right to digitally manage the region that the software can run in and they are open about why they are doing it.

I don't think that Amazon would claim that it is their right to restrict competition and something that their DRM is designed to enforce.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:56 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barcey View Post
Your example is related to regional protection and I understand that DRM is larger then copy protection. The vendors feel it is their right to digitally manage the region that the software can run in and they are open about why they are doing it.

I don't think that Amazon would claim that it is their right to restrict competition and something that their DRM is designed to enforce.
example then, if you'd like.

Amazon's business and the publisher's business interests are not the same. Amazon is a middleman. People like to think in terms of "amazon sells a Kindle = Profit" but the business model here is one of closed vertical integration. Amazon isn't just a "white box" reseller in this regard and hopes to make its money on volumes of book sales.

They cannot have the Kindle Store be a force to be recokoned with if some other retailer is cutting into the Kindle Store revenues.

Its a well understood model.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:00 AM   #114
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You are oversimplifying the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barcey View Post
Your example is related to regional protection and I understand that DRM is larger then copy protection. The vendors feel it is their right to digitally manage the region that the software can run in and they are open about why they are doing it.

I don't think that Amazon would claim that it is their right to restrict competition and something that their DRM is designed to enforce.
signifigance of the region, apart from the content controls themselves.

It is Amazon's right, and in their business model certainly in their best interest, to constrain competitor bookseller's from "their" platform.

Think of the Kindle as a Macintosh. Its a market of vertical integration, "enforced" with a rights management scheme ("a different door") as opposed to a more commodity hardware horizontal model ("many paths to the same door")
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:03 AM   #115
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They are the same as much as

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Of course, what mrkai forgets is that Amazon OWNS Mobipocket.
SCEA and Sony Pictures Entertainment are the same

I look at Amazon's ownership of mobi as 1. built in R&D savings and 2. monopoly protection should they achieve their business goals.

They operate as separate business, separate pricing structures, executive teams, etc.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:04 AM   #116
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I don't think

Quote:
Originally Posted by jharker View Post
And, mrkai, I'd like to be sure I understand you: is it your position that this technique is against the Kindle TOS and probably illegal, but that you don't actually think it's wrong or immoral?
it is wrong or immoral in the least, no.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:06 AM   #117
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I agree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
I think this was a goof on the part of Amazon. When I got my Kindle (the day after it was announced), I checked to see if my installation of Mobipocket would recognize it. It did. I installed it at least 6 months ago, but it recognized the Kindle.

My best guess is that Amazon was using the Mobipocket software to support the Kindle during testing.
This makes perfectly good sense. it would be silly to develop an asset like this when they had one they could tap.
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Old 12-14-2007, 03:15 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by jharker View Post
Unfortunately, it appears that there is one more facet to this, which is that in order for the Kindle to read it, the mobi file must also list Amazon as the publisher.

Can someone (igor?) tell me: if you simply download a mobi book from a Mobipocket bookseller, with the Kindle device # included, then do the following things work?
  1. Use USB to put the file onto the Kindle, keeping the .mobi extension?
  2. Put the file on the Kindle by emailing the mobi file to it via Amazon?
Nope, that won't work.
Kindle doesn't check the publisher. It checks the "CustomDRM" flag which must be set in the drm record for Kindle's PID. That's what my second script fixes.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:38 AM   #119
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Nope, that won't work.
Kindle doesn't check the publisher. It checks the "CustomDRM" flag which must be set in the drm record for Kindle's PID. That's what my second script fixes.
Ah, okay. I was confused about that.

Another question, then: after setting the "CustomDRM" flag, can other mobi readers still read the file? Or is it Kindle="CustomDRM On", Non-Kindle="CustomDRM Off"?
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:38 PM   #120
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Another question, then: after setting the "CustomDRM" flag, can other mobi readers still read the file? Or is it Kindle="CustomDRM On", Non-Kindle="CustomDRM Off"?
Only Kindle's PID record is affected. All other PIDs are not touched, so they work (or don't work) as before.
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