06-24-2013, 02:38 PM | #436 | |
Maria Schneider
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Most authors want to change it BEFORE the editor reads the whole manuscript, but every author/editor relationship is different. If I'm finding that the author does something chronically in the first 5 or so chapters, I usually give them the option of taking it back for another read. It saves us both a lot of time. That way if problem spots still remain, I can spot them and the story is still "fresh." Since I (and most editors) charge by the "pass" or "read" it also saves money. And for authors who are used to editing and beta reads, they don't need to be told every instance--just a general, "watch this word use" or "you have a tendency to..." And they then know what to look for. Last edited by BearMountainBooks; 06-24-2013 at 03:59 PM. |
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06-24-2013, 03:39 PM | #437 |
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But that is silly. I gave poetry as one counterexample so it is enough that one poem is fiction and does not have a story for my point to hold.
Last edited by tompe; 06-24-2013 at 03:46 PM. |
06-24-2013, 11:40 PM | #438 | |
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I am a bit surprised sometimes at what an author will hand to a reviewer though. A review from me isn't a feature spot on Oprah by any means, but there's only one chance to get it right. At least with an editor an author might have some negotiation power. My time isn't for sale so I only give what I'm prepared to give and I have no time for re-reads. |
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06-25-2013, 05:44 AM | #439 | |
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Doesn't "nearly bowled over by the stench" say the same as "The smell hit him out of nowhere, like an invisible curtain that slapped him in the face." Doesn't it also say "A scent of rot and decay filled the place." I also wonder what is meant by "It was so strong that he felt his stomach buckling and was aware of a slight gorge rising in his throat." Is it his stomach that was aware of the "slight gorge rising in his throat" (which is what the sentence implies as written)? And what's the difference between a "slight gorge" and some other "gorge"? And do stomachs "buckle"? I understand that this was likely taken from a novel and so there is more leeway for "loose" language use than in nonfiction. But even granting that, it seems to me that a good editor would have helped the author tighten the phrasing so that it had a better impact. Overkill in writing is like roadkill in driving -- usually undesirable. |
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06-25-2013, 06:01 AM | #440 | |||
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First, an advance apology to Crich. I do not mean to point my finger at you. I do want to use your quote to make a language point, however.
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In addition, in American English, a "which" clause is separated by commas; a "that" clause is not separated by commas. The above quote should have been Quote:
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If you must find something to distinguish poetry from prose, I think you would be better served by focusing on the rhythmic differences than on the content differences. |
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06-25-2013, 07:21 AM | #441 | |
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Which is why you find so few engineer-poets. |
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06-25-2013, 08:13 AM | #442 | |
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06-25-2013, 08:40 AM | #443 | |
Maria Schneider
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Same thing goes with other storyline issues. Not all writers hand off a "clean" manuscript to the editor and whether they realize it or not, that means the editor CAN'T do as good a job. The onus is on the writer to get the thing damn near perfect so that the editor can find things the writer DOESN'T see. If the editor is fixing the same old mistake with every manuscript there is no opportunity for the writer to excel and get better. The books aren't going to improve. If you wonder why a book gets to market that contains spaghetti writing even after being edited, it can be because there were multiple large issues (or a lack of a particular type of skill on the part of the editor). My early work was edited but not edited for word choice. That means the writing isn't going to be as strong. I don't think I overused words or mis-used word (the two most basic problems with word choice), but it wasn't until the second Sedona book that I started working with a word-smith editor. That was a real eye opener from a technique standpoint. I've worked with multiple editors now and most of them have a particular talent. Some of them are very experienced and they can edit for multiple problems all in one pass. My word choice editor knows that is her strength and tells people right up front. She catches plot inconsistencies, but it's not her focus. My copyeditor is very focused on copyediting, but he is the only one who happened to catch that I had a white Mustang in two places at the same time--after 3 other editors and at least 2 beta readers had read it. Yet the first editor caught a north/south issue (THANK YOU, THANK YOU...it was a very important plot point...) and so on. I think review books get sent out in a mess because writers are in a hurry. If they have had one beta reader or one editor, they assume it's perfect. "The oil must have been changed in my car because I hired someone to do it." I've read books where I KNEW the writer had had it copyedited...for a rather large sum of money. And there were too many typos for what she paid. But part of the problem can also be money. Hiring one editor is enough of a problem. Finding and paying for two or three multiplies the time, effort AND cost. It can become a real balancing act. I'm not making excuses for anyone either, but sometimes you can't FIND an editor for a particular project. (You can always find someone, but it doesn't mean they are good at it.) Sometimes the good ones become so expensive you simply can't pay the cost because if you're self-pub'd you know your numbers. You know approximately how many copies you'll sell each month and that may mean you hire one out of three editors and swap the manuscript with four other writers instead or hiring the one editor you want. FWIW. |
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06-25-2013, 08:45 AM | #444 |
Maria Schneider
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I should also mention that the hardest thing for many writers to do is cut prose. Each sentence sounds sooooo cool. That writer may have sweated over those curtain slapping, gut buckling stenches for days. Now some editor comes along and says, 'Too much, cut." WHAT???? THEY ARE GREAT SENTENCES! They TOTALLY ROCK.
And each one is fine. But together, they stink. (Pun intended.) |
06-25-2013, 10:42 AM | #445 | |
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(lyrical) poetry is uttering the undescribable in your inner guts regarding form, there's certainly a bit more effort into putting those utterances in either a sonorous and melodic package or in following certain structure very far from common everyday prose... poetry is regarding language as marble and a poem as sculpture. I have to say I usually don't like a bit most of these self-published authors expecting a profit. The kind of guy who doesn't have a personal style because they don't want to woo possible costumers away and write in an overly polished sterile writing. They sound like they almost need to apologize for the reader to be, well, reading. It's dumbed down writing for a tweeter generation. we're fucked Last edited by Namekuseijin; 06-25-2013 at 10:45 AM. |
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06-25-2013, 10:54 AM | #446 | |
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"Well, I finished the last good book today. Nothing but shit for me to read from here on out." |
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06-25-2013, 11:40 AM | #447 | |
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Last winter alone I stumbled upon four new authors first works that I thoroughly enjoyed and several books by authors who I had not read before that I also enjoyed. And of course many of my long time favorite authors are still alive and writing While there may be a lot of unreadable material out there, the amount of readable and enjoyable books seems to be growing at as fast a rate as ever. I don't begrudge anyone taking a shot at writing a book. If they are successful, good for them. If not, well at least they tried. Better than some ways of earning income and not like I have to buy their book. And if I accidentally do buy a bad ugly book on occasion, well I have bought a lot of useless stuff in my lifetime and lived through it. Caveat emptor. Helen |
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06-25-2013, 03:40 PM | #448 | |
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Some are at least good enough to give their idea/story/characters a chance at reaching an appreciating audience. And, realistically, a chance is all anybody can hope for. Even good writers fail to find an audience. There really are a whole lot less quick-buck "artists" in the indie publishing world than many would like to pretend. They do exist but you can usually tell a mile away. |
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06-25-2013, 07:32 PM | #449 |
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It's just weird that poetry would be described as a subset of fiction; possibly this comes from the fact that few people read (or write) poetry today, and modern poetry is more limited, because less popular.
But: "Listen my children and you will hear of the midnight ride of Paul Revere...." or "'Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns' he said: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred." or even: "Lo! where the Moon along the sky Sails with her happy destiny; Oft is she hid from mortal eye Or dimly seen, But when the clouds asunder fly How bright her mien!" are not examples of "fiction". |
06-26-2013, 03:38 AM | #450 |
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Not so much "weird" as just plain "wrong". "Poetry" is a description of the form, not the content. The content can be anything at all. Consider, for example, Lucretius's "De Rerum Natura" - "On the Nature of Things"; a physics textbook written in poetry.
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