02-14-2012, 02:15 PM | #16 |
Martin Kristiansen
Posts: 1,546
Karma: 8480958
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Device: Kindle International Ipad 2
|
I am sure it must just be Apple. All the other cheap as hell stuff is made by happy little Asians all terribly happy and ever so grateful for the work opportunity.
|
02-14-2012, 02:22 PM | #17 |
Wizard
Posts: 4,896
Karma: 33602910
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: PocketBook 903 & 360+
|
And clearly the situation with Apple and Foxconn is different. Apple has had some problems with their intellectual property (the prototypes that went missing) and might have negotiated more control over factory that makes their devices. This would explain why their permission was required for inspection. They are not just buyers of a product.
|
Advert | |
|
02-14-2012, 02:22 PM | #18 |
Wizard
Posts: 4,896
Karma: 33602910
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: PocketBook 903 & 360+
|
|
02-14-2012, 02:27 PM | #19 | ||
Wizard
Posts: 3,671
Karma: 12205348
Join Date: Mar 2008
Device: Galaxy S, Nook w/CM7
|
Quote:
But as others have mentioned here and on other blogs, this is not just Apple's responsibility it is also other manufactures that use Foxconn and such services responsibility to create products in an ethical manner. PR, or deep concern for workers rights and working conditions - which have only just been communicated to Apple ? Quote:
If my previous paragraph is not obvious enough that I disagree with you. Let me be more blunt I disagree 100% with your statement. The consumer should have every right to demand lower prices and expect business to comply. There are many ways to reduce cost*, what is not acceptable is that business cut cost by making human conditions insufferable. Henry Ford's autobiography holds many examples in which he strives to reduce cost and offload them to the consumer. Apple can most certainly improve the working conditions at Foxconn, keep the price of their iProducts the same and still be one of the most profitable companies around. =X= Last edited by =X=; 02-14-2012 at 06:14 PM. |
||
02-14-2012, 03:32 PM | #20 |
Tea Enthusiast
Posts: 8,554
Karma: 75384937
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Somewhere in the USA
Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2
|
Apple can try its hardest to influence Foxconn and will probably fail miserably. Chinese law does not provide the same protection or enforcement of existing laws as companies in the US and Europe. It is cheaper to hire individuals, run factories, and easier to fire or remove employees in China then it is in the US and Europe. Due to the size of the population and the push to move from rural China to urban China in order to make more money and improve their quality of life, get the child a better education, and increase oppertunities there are millions of people willing to work for crap wages, work insane hours, all in deplorable conditions.
This is no different then what we saw in the West during the 1800's and early 1900's as people began leaving the farm and moving to the cities. Not to mention the waves of immigrants willing to work in factories that were abusive in the US and in Europe. Companies are driven to make as much profit as they can. They give lip service to caring about human rights and protecting workers and labor laws because it is good PR. The reality is that they want to make a product at the least cost to them so they can increase their profit. Apple is no different the Amazon or Microsoft or any other large electronics corporation. As I understand it, Foxconn produces parts that are part of the Kindle and the Nook as well as the IPad and IPhone. Why are we targeting Apple when there is a nice long list of companies that are allowing the same thing to happen? This is no different then what we see in the garmat industry. Changes only came when some consumers began buying USA and European made garmets because of the awful labor practices in Africa, South America, and Asia. I would bet that you would find that the labor practices are still pretty horrific and would in no way be condoned in the US. And yet Nike and Under Armour and the like do really well in the US even knowing that crap labor laws. You can buy New Balance shoes that are made in the US (for the most part) for less then Nikes but people buy Nikes. They like the status that comes with the brand, the design, and the shoe so they will pay more for the Nike then the more humanly made New Balance. You can buy foods that are Fair Trade or Organic that do not use slave labor, or are less likely to use slave labor, yet most of us buy non-Fair Trade and Non-Organic because it is cheaper. To hold Apple to a higher standard then others in the electronics industry is silly. To hold Apple to a higher standard when there are less expensive items that we could all be buying that do not employ slave labor and that we ignore is silly. If we want Apple to care, or Amazon or Samsung or electronics company X, we have to make them care. That means not buying those products and making Apple, and all the other companies feel the pain. Until consumers are willing to change their buying patterns, Corporations are going to continue to give the PR acceptable "That is bad" response to awful labor practices while merrily going about their business and making as much money as they can. It took years of boycotting Nestle because of their immoral formula practice in Africa before Nestle changed its position. Nestle was giving away enough formula for free to mothers so that their breast milk dried up and then charged an insane amount of money, for the local economy, for the formula all over the African continent. There were large cases of malnutrition and some starvation of babies because of this practice. I know that we had no Nestle products in my house until I was a teenager because my Mom participated in the boycott. If you want Apple to really change their practices then convince people to loudly boycott Apple because of labor practices in places like China. Convince the consumer that they should be willing to pay more for an IPad made in humane conditions in the US or Europe and make Apple aware that this is the case. Be prepared to be Apple free for a long time. And then check in with Nike and see how well all that outcry and pressure worked. Let me know that you are surprised that not much has changed in those factories even though people are less up in arms about the labor practices in those factories. It is basic economics. Supply and demand. Apple, Nike, Nestle don't care about morals and ethics. They care about profit. Hurt their profit and things might change. Until then, it is all smoke and mirrors and nothing will change. |
Advert | |
|
02-14-2012, 04:13 PM | #21 | |
Wizard
Posts: 4,812
Karma: 26912940
Join Date: Apr 2010
Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet
|
Quote:
I am pretty sure there are people who care in most of the big companies. The question is can they do anything about it without getting fired even at the highest levels. Would you or I take that risk? Would those who are interested in buying their products pay more for products produced with reasonable working conditions and wages? Based on a recent poll in this forum it seems not. |
|
02-14-2012, 05:56 PM | #22 |
Wizard
Posts: 2,888
Karma: 5875940
Join Date: Dec 2007
Device: PRS505, 600, 350, 650, Nexus 7, Note III, iPad 4 etc
|
And don't forget that all these ethical and righteous boycotters must also send enough food for the ex-employees of the factories and finance to help house them and school the freed kids... not going to happen real soon... unfortunately...
|
02-14-2012, 06:34 PM | #23 | |||
Wizard
Posts: 3,671
Karma: 12205348
Join Date: Mar 2008
Device: Galaxy S, Nook w/CM7
|
Quote:
Quote:
(article ... ). My guess is Apple is the highest profile customer and also Foxconn's largest customer. So putting pressure for Apple to impose better work conditions on Foxconn will trickle over to the rest. Quote:
=X= |
|||
02-14-2012, 06:38 PM | #24 |
Wizard
Posts: 1,068
Karma: 23867385
Join Date: Nov 2011
Device: kindle, fire
|
it'll be fun to bump these threads in five years -- gold, apple, etc.
|
02-14-2012, 06:42 PM | #25 |
Tea Enthusiast
Posts: 8,554
Karma: 75384937
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Somewhere in the USA
Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2
|
The Consumer is at fault because we buy the products. We know what is going on at these factories and we buy the products.
Your Galaxy and Nook, my Kindles, other folks Sony's and I Products. We know why manufacturing jobs left the US, labor was too expensive and well regulated. We know why they are being made in China and other places. We are willing to look the other way or discuss the problem while allowing it to continue for our convenience. If consumers speak with their dollars then corporations have an incentive to apply pressure to change the labor practices overseas. Until then asking a corporation to do what is moral and ethical works in Star Trek and other utopian societies but not the real world. There has been little real change in agriculture or the garment industry even with all the PR nightmares. Why would you expect change in the electronics industry? |
02-14-2012, 07:16 PM | #26 | |||||
Wizard
Posts: 4,896
Karma: 33602910
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: PocketBook 903 & 360+
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
02-14-2012, 08:47 PM | #27 | |
Grand Master of Flowers
Posts: 2,201
Karma: 8389072
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Naptown
Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)
|
Quote:
The reason the attention is on Apple is because they are the biggest company and will get the most readers; most of the evidence suggests that it is better to work on Foxconn's Apple production line than it is to work at other Chinese factories. Which is not to say that it's like working in the west at all. If you investigate this issue *at all* - and reading one NY Times article doesn't count - you will find out that - again, for China - Apple is one of the more progressive companies. The fact that the NY Times didn't investigate Foxconn's Nook or Fire production line does not mean that they are not as bad or worse than Apple. [/QUOTE] |
|
02-14-2012, 10:26 PM | #28 |
Tea Enthusiast
Posts: 8,554
Karma: 75384937
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Somewhere in the USA
Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2
|
I don't know if Apple is one of the more progressive companies in China but I would put solid money betting that what Apple is doing, other companies are doing.
Just like it wasn't just Nike that had their shoes made in awful factories or Nestle using slave labor for chocolate. Or one particular textile factory in the 1800 using small children due to the size of their hands. Abuse of factory workers is an age old problem (feudalism wasn't pleasant for the vast majority of the population and was essentially an agriculture factory) and one that is not going to go away until consumers change their behavior. The companies Amazon, Sony, Apple, Dell all want to make as much profit as possible. They will cut corners, pay crap wages, ask workers to work long hours with no over time, and then claim that they are shocked, shocked I tell you, that the workers are treated so poorly and they will work on changing that right away. Yeah right. It is all a giant PR stunt. Little changes. And when it does change, the companies move their factories else where. Remember the textiles first left the US for Mexico. Mexico finally started to crack down on labor practices and those factories left for other South American countries and then eventually Asia. It is cheaper to do business in countries that do not protect the wages and rights of the worker. I am as guilty of buying this stuff as anyone. I am typing on a keyboard attached to a computer made in China. My e-reader was made in China. My sneakers were made in the US and I try and buy organic chocolate but that is about all I can say I actively contribute. Is it right? Hell no. Do I think things should change? Hell yes. Do I think Apple or any other mega corporation is going to do anything about it because it is the right thing to do? Hell no. |
02-14-2012, 11:33 PM | #29 | |
Wizard
Posts: 4,538
Karma: 264065402
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan
Device: HP Touchpad, Sony Duo 13, Lumia 920, Kobo Aura HD
|
Quote:
Nike has fined and cutoff a number of suppliers because they didn't meet Nike's standards (which are very high). You obviously have never been to China in your life, while I have been to over 1000 factories over 25 years. Everything has changed, and for the benefit of the workers. Just stop and think for a moment. Where do you think people's living standards in China and other Asian countries would be today, if not for those investments. Some journalists want to attract attention and write some crude, sensationalist exaggerations. That is the real story. |
|
02-15-2012, 04:14 AM | #30 | |
Wizard
Posts: 3,117
Karma: 9269999
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: UK
Device: Sony- T3, PRS650, 350, T1/2/3, Paperwhite, Fire 8.9,Samsung Tab S 10.5
|
Quote:
This investigation is not the result of nasty journalists ganging up on a decent employer, and Apple itself has acknowledged this by going into this process - note: they are not saying it's lies dreamed up by the gutter press, or even the un-crude, un-sensationalist press. And they should know, shouldn't they ? They do work there..... And the investigators involved have a proven track record, having been responsible for improving the conditions of those working in the textile industry - not some "lefty, do-good" bunch of idiots with no experience of what is required, and what is just. And no, of course Apple aren't the only guilty parties - but they are one of them, as the company itself admits, and any correcting of the situation has to start somewhere, so a big-name player, with admitted problems, is obviously a good place to start. And no, the textile industry, or indeed any industry with a profit motive, isn't completely perfect - but a lot of that is down to companies upping sticks and moving somewhere else, after any corrective measures are introduced, so they can continue "not to be aware of" the reasons it is again conveniently cheaper to carry on business Unlike the last place they were in, where perhaps "...........crude and sensationalist journalists..........." had the temerity to expose the situation. And the "anti-suicide nets" approach is an interesting take on solving what seems to be a problem that perhaps might be worth looking into, by any company - let alone one of the biggest companies in the world ? |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Superscript best practices? | DiapDealer | ePub | 19 | 04-14-2012 04:28 PM |
Metadata best practices | Ryn | ePub | 14 | 02-17-2012 02:27 PM |
Best practices for margins | Mookiemon | ePub | 8 | 07-24-2011 07:13 PM |
DTBook - best practices | Nate the great | Workshop | 6 | 05-15-2009 04:06 AM |