Books you love that others hate (or: A defence of covers with half naked men)

[spacepope]

At a certain point all books are hates by people.

But I have read books after reading a negative review bashing the book and going "wait, that sounds awesome!"

[kandwo]

Originally Posted by issybird

Not romance, but have you read Joseph Hansen’s Dave Brandstetter series featuring a gay detective? Given that the first book in the series was published in 1970, they were truly groundbreaking - and excellent on their own merits.

As someone who reads mostly classics I'm in this thread for all the genre fiction recommendations, and this sounds fantastic!

The reason I stay clear of romance fiction and the like is mostly because I'm allergic to the overuse of descriptive wording in dialogues (or lengthy descriptions in general). I can't stand any "..., he sneered" or "..., he said mockingly". And I've gotten the impression that these books are ripe with such descriptive and engaging language. I dislike engaging adverbs and adjectives in books just like I dislike sad piano music in sad scenes in sad movies hinting that I should do well to descend into sadness at this saddest of sad hours.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by kandwo

The reason I stay clear of romance fiction and the like is mostly because I'm allergic to the overuse of descriptive wording in dialogues (or lengthy descriptions in general). I can't stand any "..., he sneered" or "..., he said mockingly". And I've gotten the impression that these books are ripe with such descriptive and engaging language. I dislike engaging adverbs and adjectives in books just like I dislike sad piano music in sad scenes in sad movies hinting that I should do well to descend into sadness at this saddest of sad hours.

I dunno. You have to have some flavor to the book. Otherwise you might as well read scripts.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by issybird

I also class romance and sci-fi together as far as my own distaste goes; however, I know that within each there must be better books, typical books, and lousy books. As for thrillers, I was thinking of the subset with a manly man with a weapon on the cover and a limp partially clad woman in a subservient position.

I think you’re right about romances being formulaic, up to a point. I think the insistence on what is called HEA, or at least HFN, does them a disservice. Why limit outcomes and in a manner which the reader expects? I assume sci-fi doesn’t do that. But then, it’s not dissimilar to mysteries in that respect; readers have every confidence that Peter Wimsey or Hercule Poirot will figure out the culprit and that someone will find Nancy Drew bound and gagged in that closet.

I happened to hear part of a discussion of romance books on the radio on Valentine's Day. One person who called in said she discovered romance novels during the pandemic when she just needed to read something feel-good with a happy ending. I don't see anything wrong with there being a genre of books that predictably ends well. As long as these books are marketed so the potential reader knows what they're getting, then people who don't want this can avoid it.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by hildea

The way I see it, genre conventions are not a matter of limiting outcomes, it's a matter of labelling/truth in advertising. Say you sit down to read a historical novel but find that it takes place in 2022. Or midway through a historical novel the protagonist is bitten by a vampire and then abducted by aliens. Or a book marketed as a cozy mystery had several extremely explicit sex scenes with detailed descriptions of body parts in motion and exchange of bodily fluids. Or you are enjoying a crime novel with a tricky locked room mystery and are looking forward to finding out how the author is going to explain it, and then learn in the last chapter that a ghost did it. Or a book marketed as a fantasy novel is a realistic contemporary story with nothing supernatural or magical at all. All of these books may be perfectly fine in themselves, but if they don't meet a minimum of their readers' expectations many readers will be disappointed and annoyed.

Authors are, of course, free to write as many love stories with unhappy endings as they like. But they shouldn't slap a label saying "this is a hopeful, uplifting love story" on their tragedies. Just like authors are free to write stories which take place completely in the present day, but then they shouldn't call those books historical novels. And so on.

My preferred genre is mysteries. Once I read a random library book where the blurb sounded like it would be a police procedural. I don't remember what was on the cover but obviously it wasn't anything that was a red flag for me. The book started off as a typical police mystery but then it turned out the villain was some ancient supernatural entity. Definitely not what I was expecting or looking for.

Another time I was feeling really stressed out and decided I needed something light with a happy ending, so I downloaded some random romance book from the library. It had a fully-clothed couple on the cover (not a shirtless Fabio-type) and I think the blurb was something about characters coming home for the Christmas holiday. I figured it would be light and cute but boy, once that couple got together they were doing it like rabbits complete with detailed descriptions. I ended up skipping over a lot of that book. Not that I have any objection to such books existing, it just wasn't what I was looking for at the time.

[hobnail]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

It's not a genre I read too much of. But when I do come across a gay novel that sounds interesting, I do a little research on the author, As soon as I read "she lives with her husband and too many dogs" or something like that I move on. This goes against my usual principles. I wouldn't judge an author like that in any other case. But with gay fiction, I just don't want to contribute to what I see as a real problem.

Sometimes you have to really dig, and not assume what they say about themselves is true. I read a gay mystery romance and the author's first name was Josh so I assumed it was a man. But when I finished it and read the about the author page it was a woman; her web page confirmed that. Just yesterday or the day before there was a freebie on ereaderiq and from looking at the author's page on amazon their icon, avatar, whatever, didn't look like what I would have expected a man to use, but their description there used the male pronoun he. I was still thinking, "hmm, I dunno" so I went to their web page and sure enough it was a woman. I also get the feeling that they're trying to hide their gender when they don't give a first name, just two initials and a last name.

[hobnail]

In reference to JSWolf's instant put down when it has a half naked man on the cover, for me it's the "shifter" genre where it's a woman and two or more men (typically shirtless, naturally). Shifters are people who can turn into a wolf, panther, etc. Recently I read one not realizing it was a shifter novel because it wasn't a romance, just a shifter fantasy, written by a man. The cover was a nice graphic. I don't remember the author (looked it up; Robert M. Kerns) but the title was Smilodon. I've enjoyed it and read all of the books so far in the series but it's not ended yet.

[Catlady]

In checking for new acquisitions at one of my libraries, I noticed this image, assumed it was probably a gay romance, and clicked on it just for the heck of it.

Spoiler:

"Delightful...cathartic, devious, and terrifically entertaining." —The New York Times
"Timely, whip-smart, and darkly funny." —People (Book of the Week)
"A deliciously dark fable of sex and power." —Esquire

A provocative, razor-sharp, and timely debut novel about a beloved English professor facing a slew of accusations against her professor husband by former students—a situation that becomes more complicated when she herself develops an obsession of her own...
"When I was a child, I loved old men, and I could tell that they also loved me."

And so we are introduced to our deliciously incisive narrator: a popular English professor whose charismatic husband at the same small liberal arts college is under investigation for his inappropriate relationships with his former students. The couple have long had a mutual understanding when it comes to their extra-marital pursuits, but with these new allegations, life has become far less comfortable for them both. And when our narrator becomes increasingly infatuated with Vladimir, a celebrated, married young novelist who's just arrived on campus, their tinder box world comes dangerously close to exploding.

With this bold, edgy, and uncommonly assured debut, author Julia May Jonas takes us into charged territory, where the boundaries of morality bump up against the impulses of the human heart. Propulsive, darkly funny, and wildly entertaining, Vladimir perfectly captures the personal and political minefield of our current moment, exposing the nuances and the grey area between power and desire.

I think whoever came up with that cover did a disservice to both the author and the readers.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by hobnail

Sometimes you have to really dig, and not assume what they say about themselves is true. I read a gay mystery romance and the author's first name was Josh so I assumed it was a man. But when I finished it and read the about the author page it was a woman; her web page confirmed that. Just yesterday or the day before there was a freebie on ereaderiq and from looking at the author's page on amazon their icon, avatar, whatever, didn't look like what I would have expected a man to use, but their description there used the male pronoun he. I was still thinking, "hmm, I dunno" so I went to their web page and sure enough it was a woman. I also get the feeling that they're trying to hide their gender when they don't give a first name, just two initials and a last name.

Man, don't I know it. It really shouldn't be so difficult to find and support gay novels by gay authors.

[hobnail]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Man, don't I know it. It really shouldn't be so difficult to find and support gay novels by gay authors.

Yup. I just dig and investigate and make sure the author is a man.

Equally annoying, even though I don't read them, are the ones about a trans, non-binary, or whatever, who are a small percentage of LGBTQ (not sure if I got all of the letters), but you wouldn't guess that from seeing all the books that the women have written with one of them as the main character.

From what I get by selective filtering with ereaderiq and my library I'd say at least 90% of the gay male and male BTQ, etc. books are written by women.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by hobnail

Yup. I just dig and investigate and make sure the author is a man.

Equally annoying, even though I don't read them, are the ones about a trans, non-binary, or whatever, who are a small percentage of LGBTQ (not sure if I got all of the letters), but you wouldn't guess that from seeing all the books that the women have written with one of them as the main character.

From what I get by selective filtering with ereaderiq and my library I'd say at least 90% of the gay male and male BTQ, etc. books are written by women.

It must not matter to most readers, or they'd publish with male pseudonyms, just like there are men writing romances using female pseudonyms.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Catlady

It must not matter to most readers, or they'd publish with male pseudonyms, just like there are men writing romances using female pseudonyms.

They do. Josh Lanyon is one example that springs to mind and there are others, though I'm no expert in the field.

To be clear, I simultaneously support people having the freedom to read/write whatever they want, and at the same time, gay people have long been discriminated against and gay books (books, not just romance) are dominated by titles written by straight female authors, to the point where it chokes out books written by gay men for gay men.

As an example:

Top 100 Best Sellers in LGBTQ+ eBooks - There are 8 male authors. In the top 20? Zero.

Top 100 New Releases in LGBTQ+ eBooks - Again, there were 8.

For both of those, I counted multiple books by the same author as different entries, otherwise there would be fewer. And notice, I didn't filter down to romance. Just books in general.

And there are publishers, like Dreamspinner Press that are big fish in a small pond. They publish gay romance, mostly written by women. In a couple of discussion groups I'm part of, gay male authors of complained that their work wasn't deemed acceptable as it didn't fit the Dreamspinner formula. That's fine and all. but it's as if Harlequin had become so successful, other historical fiction had to be written to follow Harlequin guidelines to have any chance of success.

It may not matter to you. But if you are a gay man trying to find books that resemble/reflect your life experiences, good luck. I wonder if we wouldn't feel weird if the same thing were happening in books for other minorities?

[meeera]

Originally Posted by hildea

Knowing that I'm a part of that 800 pound gorilla that is straight women reading romance, I try to alleviate this by seeking out, and reviewing, romances written by queer people. (I'm not great at reviewing, but working on it.) In contemporary romance I like Nathan Burgoine, Alexis Hall, and Jack Harbon.

And Casey McQuiston! (though One Last Stop crosses over into SFF romance.)

[ZodWallop]

Back on track, a type of book I enjoy that, well maybe others don't hate but they do ignore, is westerns. It's a shame how far westerns have fallen.

I don't care so much for their historical accuracy. I haven't read Louis L'Amour.

I enjoy the larger than life operatic elements you can find in them. In film, I prefer the Italian spaghetti westerns and in books, there was a group of British writers in the 60s and 70s called the Piccadilly Cowboys who churned out tons of western novels, though none of them had ever been west of Piccadilly (that was the joke in their name). There's something about that type of story that really speaks to me.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

They do. Josh Lanyon is one example that springs to mind and there are others, though I'm no expert in the field.

To be clear, I simultaneously support people having the freedom to read/write whatever they want, and at the same time, gay people have long been discriminated against and gay books (books, not just romance) are dominated by titles written by straight female authors, to the point where it chokes out books written by gay men for gay men.

As an example:

Top 100 Best Sellers in LGBTQ+ eBooks - There are 8 male authors. In the top 20? Zero.

Top 100 New Releases in LGBTQ+ eBooks - Again, there were 8.

For both of those, I counted multiple books by the same author as different entries, otherwise there would be fewer. And notice, I didn't filter down to romance. Just books in general.

And there are publishers, like Dreamspinner Press that are big fish in a small pond. They publish gay romance, mostly written by women. In a couple of discussion groups I'm part of, gay male authors of complained that their work wasn't deemed acceptable as it didn't fit the Dreamspinner formula. That's fine and all. but it's as if Harlequin had become so successful, other historical fiction had to be written to follow Harlequin guidelines to have any chance of success.

It may not matter to you. But if you are a gay man trying to find books that resemble/reflect your life experiences, good luck. I wonder if we wouldn't feel weird if the same thing were happening in books for other minorities?

When it comes to fiction, I never know anything about the author, or really care to know anything about the author, beyond the name on the cover.