Seriously thoughtful Learning a new language

[Donnageddon]

I actually prefer spelling "color" as "Colour" and all such British spellings. It just sounds better on the eye.

[GraceKrispy]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

And I have to admit that making "English" the official language in the US is still a going concern. And one I am absolutely against. There is no doubt that English is the dominant language of the US, but I never want it made the "official" language of the US, anymore than I would ever want *any* religion made the official religion.

When that happens, the US becomes much smaller. And very insignificant.

I agree- I don't want English as the official language. As I was under the impression that Hawai'i was the only state with two official languages, I went searching and found this map:



Dark blue- English= official language, Dark purple- Dual official languages,
Light blue- no official language, English defacto language, Light purplish/pink- no official language, multiple defacto languages.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

I actually don't dislike it at all (although a few online Australian friends and I get on each other about spelling things "wrong"). Now I am trying to think of that sound difference of which you speak. Can you provide some example words? I know there are a few differences in pronunciation of the short "o" sound in American English that not everyone can hear. I just remember graduate school, working on research on phonics with a professor who could not hear the difference between the |o| sounds in dog and bottle. One was a more open sound and one more closed. To her (Boston born and raised) they were one and the same. Some Southerners pronounce pin and pen the exact same way, to give another example. I'm guessing there are examples like that in all languages, as dialects alter, however minutely, the sounds of some letters.

Differences in vowel sounds are what principally differentiate one "accent" from another, of course. Eg, in Britain, people in the south of England pronounce "grass", "bath", "path", etc, with a long "ar" sound, while people in the north use a short "a" with no trace of an "r".

What I was referring to in the "-our" spellings is that, at least in British English, they represent an "-er" sound. eg, "favour" and "baker" have the same final sound, and it's a different sound to that found in words like "prior", in which the "o" is pronounced as a short "o".

The first man who attempted to do a systematic survey of American accents in the early 20th century categorised them on the basis of how people pronounced the three words "marry", "Mary", and "merry". In British English those three words have distinctly different vowel sounds, but in most American accents two of the three - or even all three! - use the same vowel.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

I think Europeans have an advantage because "foreign languages" are just a few kilometers away. In America it is "English" (for the most part) everywhere you go for hundreds (and hundreds) of miles

That, and I think it has also something to do with our trading history. We've always been a country, from the middle ages on, where goods from other countries were stored to be shipped of with a different form of transport: goods from Germany, France, and the rest of the interior of Europe come by river boat, to be shipped of by sea, and vice versa. Besides, Dutch has only a very small speaker base in Europe, so wherever we go, we have to speak a foreign language (English, French and German are the largest groups, Spanish is following after).

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

As for those from the UK and Australia, I can hardly discern what nonsense they are spouting.

I wish they would learn to use the language as it was intended.

How is language intended? Languages evolve, especially if groups are separated by large distances. A good example is Dutch vs Afrikaans. The original Dutch settlers took their language with them and separated from the original stock and influenced by other languages Afrikaans took a different road. I find it funny to hear and can even understand it, if the speaker doesn't speak too fast. But it has a greater difference than British English/US English/Aussie English... (besides, I love listening to Aussie English! I find it sounding "more friendly" than US English...)

Originally Posted by HarryT

The more languages you learn, the easier it becomes, because you start to see the commonality in the way that languages "work". Also, if you're learning languages with Indo-European roots, you find that many of the most commonly-used works are very much the same in different languages.

That's why I don't have too much problem with German and English (German is only much more rusty as I hardly speak it unless I'm on holiday), as our three languages are Germanic languages and a lot of problem with French, which is a Latin language.

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

I know, right??? The worst thing for me is that they spell words incorrectly! They stick all these "U" in everywhere. Canadians do that, too!

I always have to think to remove the "u"... When I went to that year of High School in New Mexico, I once had a discussion with my newspaper teacher. She had corrected one of my interviews and I just couldn't understand what was wrong with the word...

(the word in question was favourite...)

Originally Posted by GraceKrispy

I took German and Norwegian, and learned Navajo, and was passable in all three of those languages, but certainly not fluent. When I learned each new language, the old ones sort of got sucked into the new one. years later, I found myself trying to put a sentence together and realizing I had German and Norwegian all stuck together in there. No wonder those German tourists looked at me like I was nuts ...

You try to make a test... Often, when I had several tests on a day (at school), I'd write French on my German test, German on my English and English on my French...

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

I actually prefer spelling "color" as "Colour" and all such British spellings. It just sounds better on the eye.

I do it automatically...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

How is language intended? Languages evolve, especially if groups are separated by large distances. A good example is Dutch vs Afrikaans. The original Dutch settlers took their language with them and separated from the original stock and influenced by other languages Afrikaans took a different road.

Much the same thing has happened with British vs. American English. American English has retained many old words and grammatical constructions that have fallen out of use in Britain. A good example is the past participle of the word "get", "gotten". British people will say:

"I've got to go home at 8pm"

and also:

"I've got a new car"

whereas Americans will say:

"I've got to go home at 8pm"

but:

"I've gotten a new car"

Most British people would regard "gotten" as an "Americanism", but it's a grammatical construction which has simply become obsolete in British English, but which is still used perfectly correctly in the USA.

[Dylrob]

Alas I'm not bilingual as of yet. I've wanted to learn Japanese for years, but because of ... frustrating circumstances I haven't had much luck. As much as I love books, I'm not so good at learning through them. At least not another language. I need a class, which isn't offered where I live right now. Well I'm hopefully moving soon. So with any luck I may be able to take that class in the Fall.

Oh, I do know a little Yiddish. Not enough to hold a conversation. Just the little bits that have filtered down my family line (It was the only thing my Great Grandfather could speak).

EDIT: It's a little difficult to type when your ferret is jumping all over the keyboard.

[HansTWN]

German is one of the most difficult languages, if you want to speak it correctly. It is my native language. I have lived in the US for 3 years long ago and now live in Taiwan for more than 20 years, so I also speak Mandarin and some Vietnamese. But my French and Spanish have suffered. Reading is still ok, but active speaking takes days in the respective country before I get back into it. The most important thing when learning a foreign language is not to feel embarrassed when you make mistakes, especially in Asia people tend to laugh at foreigners' accents and mistakes. That is, of course, considered to be in bad taste in Europe and the US.

The most interesting aspects about the Sino-Tibetan languages (which include Mandarin and Vietnamese) is that they can almost completely do away with grammar. Downside is that the pronounciation is much more difficult. Perhaps Europeans like to build all those rules to live by, both in life and in language. Language reflects culture.

The best way to learn is to speak, listen, and read. Forget structured learning, except in the very beginning.

[kacir]

I speak my mother language and another Slavic language from childhood. Then I learned Russian in school (10 years of study). As a result I can communicate with quite a few people including Polish, Belorussian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian ...
I have started to study English after I stopped using my Russian actively. So just like you describe it, English somehow replaced my Russian. After a few years of learning English I went to the USA. I was trying to tell a joke in Russian, because some puns and jokes can not be translated from Slavic language to English without lots of explaining and killing most of the fun in the process.
As I was telling the joke in Russian my friends (that all understood Russian) were laughing like mad.
"Why are you laughing? I did not tell the punchline yet."
"Well, try to listen to yourself. Half of the words you are using are English" (mostly "well", "but", "or", and other "filling" words that you use unconsciously while thinking what to say next)
So I concentrated really hard on Russian and I was able to finish the anecdote without using English words. Then I realized that I was translating the text in my head, word after word from English!. Not from my mother language (Slavic one).
At that time I was already thinking in English when speaking English. Before that I was thinking in Russian when I used Russian language.
When it comes to reading, I have never been comfortable reading in "Russian Alphabet" - Azbuka. Despite lots of effort during my 10 years of study I was never able to read Russian Full speed.

[Alphapheemail]

The best way to learn a launguage is to be fully immersed in the country of origin. The only way to fully get a grasp of all the idioms. Other wise one can only know how to use the "basics" (which is good too).
I have always loved languages, it shows an insight on how that society thinks (positively ect.) Spanish and most Latin languages are very romantic and effusively descriptive.
I have always found spanish books to be much more "buttery" thats the only way i can describe it. almost smooth and rich with words, but not as many as to make me want to barf.

My native language is English. I was raised in Costa Rica till 18; so I know Spanish. Learned college level french and I have learned Greek rather well due to my significant otter. ( he's learning Spanish ).

Goal: perfect greek, and french. Then attack Portuguese

[HappyMartin]

I speak English and Afrikaans though my Afrikaans is not as fluent as it once was.

Ek praat Engels en Afkikaans maar my Afrikaans is nie meer so vlot nie.

[AlfonsVH]

I live in Belgium; my mother tongue is Dutch (with a 'Flemish' accent - if that even exists).

I like to think of English as my second-best language, which it probably is. I took English courses from age 14 to 18 (I'm 21 now), but I've also seen a lot of english movies, read english books et cetera.

I'm rather fluent in understanding French, but my French-speaking abilities have severely deteriorated during the last couple of years. We had obligatory French courses in school from age 11 to 18, but I don't remember much of them.

My understanding of German is average, and I'm able to speak it to a certain extent; i.e. I can express myself, but probably not in a correct way. Once again, I learned most of this language in school, from age 15 to 18.

Finally, I have some minor notions of Swedish, Spanish and Italian; i.e. with some difficulty I should be able to understand a simple written text.
I also took an evening course in Mandarin Chinese for 1 year, but I hardly remember a thing.

[Greg Anos]

I have lived in a near-border area for most of my life. Don't forget that language is also used as a weapon, and not just by the more powerful language group. For example, Spanish, (and it's border corruption Tex-Mex), as used as a shield for privacy among (apparent) non-Spanish speakers. As a late teenage, I and a friend used to have grand times when we were in public places, listening to people talking Spanish behind us in lines, and then speaking back and for between us in broken German, which the Spanish speakers didn't know. The sudden silence and nasty looks were priceless. How dare we talk in a language they didn't understand. (Which was what they were doing....)

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Alphapheemail

The best way to learn a launguage is to be fully immersed in the country of origin. The only way to fully get a grasp of all the idioms. Other wise one can only know how to use the "basics" (which is good too).

That's why my English is a bit better than passable. Though my spelling is still horrible (in any language, especially in Dutch), my understanding of the language is fair. I even dreamt in English when I stayed in the US and couldn't remember half of the Dutch words when I talked to my mother on the phone.

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

I speak English and Afrikaans though my Afrikaans is not as fluent as it once was.

Ek praat Engels en Afkikaans maar my Afrikaans is nie meer so vlot nie.

And in Dutch:

Ik spreek Engels en Afrikaans, maar mijn Afrikaans is niet meer so vloeiend als dat hij was.


The "nie so vlot nie" is something what was often used in Middle Dutch (double negative), but is now no longer used in the Dutch language, but apparently still in Afrikaans

Originally Posted by AlfonsVH

I live in Belgium; my mother tongue is Dutch (with a 'Flemish' accent - if that even exists).

I love that accent! I used to live near the Belgian border and we heard a lot of it. I think it makes the language very friendly (as compared to the accent that is spoken in the northern part of the Netherlands)

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I have lived in a near-border area for most of my life. Don't forget that language is also used as a weapon, and not just by the more powerful language group. For example, Spanish, (and it's border corruption Tex-Mex), as used as a shield for privacy among (apparent) non-Spanish speakers. As a late teenage, I and a friend used to have grand times when we were in public places, listening to people talking Spanish behind us in lines, and then speaking back and for between us in broken German, which the Spanish speakers didn't know. The sudden silence and nasty looks were priceless. How dare we talk in a language they didn't understand. (Which was what they were doing....)

They'll probably have looked even nastier if you dared to speak their language

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

....

They'll probably have looked even nastier if you dared to speak their language

Not really. They then felt validated, (We spoke their language!) even if they might be embarrassed about talking (in another language) about us behind our backs. But for us to apparently be doing the same thing to them, how dare we!

[ficbot]

My native language is English. I went to a school from K-6 that taught Hebrew half the day and at one point was fairly fluent. That had faded from dis-use, but in times where I have been around Hebrew speakers, it will come back (e.g. one summer I went t Israel, one year I worked at a Hebrew school etc.)

I started learning French in Grade 4 and am fluent. I took it through High school and into university. It too faded a little from dis-use, but when I got certified as a teacher I took the French qualification and have been teaching it, so it's back up there again and stronger than ever. I don't think I would ever 'pass' for a native speaker, and my speaking is still better than my reading/writing. But I am proud of how far my French has come and would have no problems communicating/understanding it if I were ever in Quebec or France.

I have a few years of high school/university Spanish and was passable in that at one point. It's been a long time since I have used it though. I feel fairly confident that if I applied myself to it the way I did with the French, I could get it up there again. But there would be little point since I have so few chances to use it. So I would rather focus my efforts on improving my French as much as I can. I have thought about posting a little in the French forums here (I wold love to do some ebook reading in French) but have been shy. I know my writing is not as good as my speaking is, and I don't want the actual French people to feel like I am interrupting their 'real' conversations with my 'learning French' issues.