PageEdit alternative?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by najgori

know your meme!

seriously, someone want to teach writers to use styles in word like "select text with mouse, now go to styles, press button... press undo because you also marked text below"? good luck with that, and while you are in office teach them speed typing. double your text, double your money!

Wow, you're not serious, right?

I realize that creatives, largely, are allergic to right-brain processes, but that's not what we're talking about here. You take 10 minutes, set up a handful of styles (or, if you're a remotely organized person--a plotter, not a pantser, let's say), you reuse a pre-existing styled template that you've created--and off you go. You select a style for your first paragraph, if you REALLY want to be "on top of it," then select a style for the second and from that point forward, it's typing--nothing more.

When you get to chapter 2 (or 30 or whatever damn order you're writing in), you type Chapter 2, and yes, then you highlight it and select the heading, and then it's type the chapter, yadda.

I mean...we're talking, what, stop ONCE or twice in a chapter, at the beginning, to do something that will make the nav pane function like Scrivener--in fact, WHERE Scrivener got that idea FROM?

Wow, I mean, if that's just too much, then I guess there's no goddamned hope.

Hitch

[exaltedwombat]

Originally Posted by najgori

)

seriously, someone want to teach writers to use styles in word like "select text with mouse, now go to styles, press button... press undo because you also marked text below"? good luck with that, and while you are in office teach them speed typing. double your text, double your money!

Well, yes. If you're GOING to write on a computer, basic computer skills are necessary.

How do you get on with "Hold pencil in right hand. Scrape the pointy end on the paper. If nothing happens, go to Pencil Sharpener"?

[DiapDealer]

Yet many of the same left-brained, computer illiterates have no difficulty whatsoever learning to use a smartphone so they can tweet and Instagram with their fans. Taking an active (and technological) role in marketing seems to be fine and dandy, but heaven forbid they'd have to highlight text and choose a style when typing.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yet many of the same left-brained, computer illiterates have no difficulty whatsoever learning to use a smartphone so they can tweet and Instagram with their fans. Taking an active (and technological) role in marketing seems to be fine and dandy, but heaven forbid they'd have to highlight text and choose a style when typing.

OMG, yes! THIS^, exactly. Man, they can figure out how to use that funky Chinese video app, but highlight a chapter head and click a style?

Oh, THAT's too hard and it interferes with the creative process. (Do we have a "harrumph" emoty?)

Hitch

[JustinThought]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

If the external editor in question had it's own WYSIWYG editing/rendering capabilities, I would think you would be able to use those, but I wouldn't swear to it.

//snip!//

I have to tell you, I tried several out there. Most of them were junk. One I kind of liked; it had many of the features I required. I thought, "Ohboy! Now I can stay with the latest version of Sigil after all!" (Sorry, I don't remember its name. I guess that statement is a bit of a spoiler.)

Then, when I reopened the book--all kinds of errors! Seems that editor took it upon itself to make the original file .bak, and add the new .xhtml.

Did you see the mushroom cloud from where you were?

[ghmerrill]

Originally Posted by KevinH

For what it is worth, I had some free development time and have added the following features to the next version of PageEdit. ...

Thanks. This seems like an eminently reasonable response and compromise within the goals and resources that Sigil has. Clearly there's at least one group of users who will appreciate this, and it won't be harmful to others.

I haven't been following this thread since I've been actually using Sigil+Amaya to move forward on my book. But an update on the thread appeared in my email this morning and I took a look.

About the flurry of opinions expressed concerning Word, etc. I have nothing to contribute (or nothing I want to). I've done all the howling at that moon that I care to, I've noticed that it's had little effect, and it isn't what I was looking for in my original query.

As to the "It was hard to make, so it should be hard to use" school (that's an actual -- though sarcastic and eye-rolling -- comment by one of my wife's previous managers when she was working in the commercial software division at Fujitsu), or the related school of "If it isn't hard to use, then users won't understand how much effort it took us and that will reflect poorly on our group" (that's an actual -- and absolutely serious -- comment from my boss in the Novartis AI group in 2001): this is not how I ever chose to develop software for end users, but maybe it works for you. And after all, in software product development, you're the one that's important, eh?

And now, back to the book ...

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ghmerrill

"If it isn't hard to use, then users won't understand how much effort it took us and that will reflect poorly on our group" (that's an actual -- and absolutely serious -- comment from my boss in the Novartis AI group in 2001): this is not how I ever chose to develop software for end users, but maybe it works for you. And after all, in software product development, you're the one that's important, eh?

I hope that's a rhetorical "you." Nobody in thread has espoused anything even remotely similar to that view.

But regarding who's the one that's important in software product development ... well that gets pretty fuzzy when there's no actual "product" for sale, and all development is done by a couple of folks who just like to do a little programming in their spare time and don't accept donations of any kind, now doesn't it? Just something to keep in mind for those who continue to insist on incorrectly associating irrelevant software development paradigms with what it is we're actually doing here.

[ghmerrill]

Well, this has become somewhat academic as it's ascended to a sort of meta-level, but ...

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I hope that's a rhetorical "you." Nobody in thread has espoused anything even remotely similar to that view.

First, that wasn't directed at you individually, or to any of the developers who have actually been responsive to needs/desires expressed by users here. And I have to disagree that nobody here has espoused anything even remotely similar to that view. But that aside ...

But regarding who's the one that's important in software product development ... well that gets pretty fuzzy when there's no actual "product" for sale, and all development is done by a couple of folks who just like to do a little programming in their spare time and don't accept donations of any kind, now doesn't it?

Well, yes and no. If you don't focus on the customer and user group (whether they're paying for a product or not), then in fact what you have is just a bunch of self-indulgent developers participating in some sort of hobby and pretending to be doing something meaningful and worthwhile. I don't think that's at all fuzzy. I also don't have the sense that this hobby approach is Sigil's "project culture", but I suppose I could be wrong.

There's a lot more that could be said about this (and has been), but ...

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ghmerrill

Well, yes and no. If you don't focus on the customer and user group (whether they're paying for a product or not), then in fact what you have is just a bunch of self-indulgent developers participating in some sort of hobby

Yes. That's exactly what I'm doing. Sigil is a self-indulgent hobby of mine. But I'm not a "developer." Hell, I'm barely a programmer. I'm a sysadmin. Yes... THAT sysadmin.

Originally Posted by ghmerrill

and pretending to be doing something meaningful and worthwhile.

But I'm not doing this. It's worthwhile to me, but I don't care much if it's seems worthwhile to others. I'll listen to suggestions from other users, but I feel no obligation to incorporate anything that doesn't make sense to me personally first.

Originally Posted by ghmerrill

I also don't have the sense that this hobby approach is Sigil's "project culture"

Might want to get your sniffer checked. Because I'm all hobby; all the time.

I won't speak for Kevin, but for myself, my loyalty is to the code, and to Sigil itself. Not its users. And while it's cool if others find what I do useful, I don't really care in the least who uses Sigil, how many use Sigil, or how many don't. And that's because regardless of you (and others) insisting otherwise, I HAVE NO CUSTOMERS. Paying or otherwise. Period. I am not hacking on Sigil for anyone other than me. It's usefulness to others is primarily a by-product of my utterly self-indulgent hobby.

My decision to not accept donations for my contributions to Sigil was made precisely because I did not want to promote or instill a traditional business/customer paradigm. I'm not hawking wares.

[odamizu]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

... I am not hacking on Sigil for anyone other than me. It's usefulness to others is primarily a by-product of my utterly self-indulgent hobby.

And from this one user who loves Sigil beyond words, thank you soooooooo much for sharing the fruits of your self-indulgent hobby with the rest of us.

Same thanks goes to KevinH, code contributors, and all the plugin developers who share the fruits of their time and effort totally free of charge.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yes. That's exactly what I'm doing. Sigil is a self-indulgent hobby of mine. But I'm not a "developer." Hell, I'm barely a programmer. I'm a sysadmin. Yes... THAT sysadmin.


But I'm not doing this. It's worthwhile to me, but I don't care much if it's seems worthwhile to others. I'll listen to suggestions from other users, but I feel no obligation to incorporate anything that doesn't make sense to me personally first.


Might want to get your sniffer checked. Because I'm all hobby.

I won't speak for Kevin, but for myself, my loyalty is to the code, and to Sigil itself. Not its users. And while it's cool if others find what I do useful, I don't really care in the least who uses Sigil, how many use Sigil, or how many don't. And that's because regardless of you (and others) insisting otherwise, I HAVE NO CUSTOMERS. Paying or otherwise. Period. I am not hacking on Sigil for anyone other than me. It's usefulness to others is primarily a by-product of my utterly self-indulgent hobby.

Ohhhhh, this is why, on occasion, we should be able to give NEGATIVE KARMA, so that I could give it to the post that precedes yours.

Honestly, unfreakingbelievable.



Hitch

[DiapDealer]

You know what would really make my day right about now? A non-coding "UI Expert" providing mocked-up artwork of how Sigil/PageEdit should look to be more effective.

We haven't had one of those in a long, long time. Now, those folks really get my dander up.

[KevinH]

As for me, like many/most opensource developers I pick projects that "scratch my own itch" (so to speak). Sigil is in fact something I do in my free time that also helps keep my C++, C, python, html, and javascript programming skills sharp.

I, like DiapDealer, will attempt to satisfy other user's needs if they are both "doable" and would help in general (based on my personal opinion).

That said, some users vociferously complain about any change at all and seem to feel they have a right to be vocal with their complaints and push to get what they want. Even if it doesn't make good sense technically. I don't think you are part of that group, but, of course, I could be wrong.

What I have learned is that "say" in most open source projects is actually based on a user's ability and desire to help out with testing, bug reporting, translating, documentation writing, plugin development, and helping other users, etc. When people who help out ask for features, we are simply more inclined to agree.

And Sigil is not unique in this. I would guess these types of policies are followed by most open source projects that are not company funded.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by KevinH

What I have learned is that "say" in most open source projects is actually based on a user's ability and desire to help out with testing, bug reporting, translating, documentation writing, plugin development, and helping other users, etc. When people who help out ask for features, we are simply more inclined to agree..

Absolutely. Those who pitch in will always get preferential treatment. And there's countless ways to pitch in. Popping in just to make drive-by demands, complain, or threaten to stop using Sigil because we "ruined it," however, is not one of them.

[najgori]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

You know what would really make my day right about now? A non-coding "UI Expert" providing mocked-up artwork of how Sigil/PageEdit should look to be more effective.

on sigil:
i am no expert but there is one simple thing that make difference in coding and that is "shortcuts". whenever you need to reach for mouse, you are losing time.
you need shortcuts for *everything*.

btw. shout out for developers! great job. thanx.