Do Amazon and the Publishers want to Kill Digital Sales ?

[whismerhill]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Too late.
And tone down the language. This is a family friendly forum.

Thanks for the correction, sorry I'm french & influenced by what I read everywhere, I wanted to change that word for another but it wasn't coming to me.

[whismerhill]

Originally Posted by darryl

The distinction between whether a feature is provided by the device or by the ebook itself is artificial and irrelevant.

Sorry, I'll have to disagree again.
It's relevant to me, e.g. I refuse to pay extra for a feature which is included in the device I paid for already, Any electronic document is searchable, ebooks are no exception. I'm sorry I fail to see this any differently.
IF I had not paid for the device I'd agree but this is not the case.

The only argument for me that is really in favor of the ebook compared to pbook is space. Since I live in France, living space tends to be pretty expensive, pbook can take up a lot of space on shelves if you like to keep them (of course it's irrelevant if you sell them back)


Also the ebook is more ecologic than a pbook, it uses less materials, consumes less fuel, releases less toxic gazes or whatever.
Imho it should be promoted by governments

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by whismerhill

Imho it should be promoted by governments

That would be a very effective way to kill digital sales.

[whismerhill]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

That would be a very effective way to kill digital sales.

I fail to see your point ?

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by whismerhill

Sorry, I'll have to disagree again.
It's relevant to me, e.g. I refuse to pay extra for a feature which is included in the device I paid for already, Any electronic document is searchable, ebooks are no exception. I'm sorry I fail to see this any differently.
IF I had not paid for the device I'd agree but this is not the case.

The only argument for me that is really in favor of the ebook compared to pbook is space. Since I live in France, living space tends to be pretty expensive, pbook can take up a lot of space on shelves if you like to keep them (of course it's irrelevant if you sell them back)


Also the ebook is more ecologic than a pbook, it uses less materials, consumes less fuel, releases less toxic gazes or whatever.
Imho it should be promoted by governments

You do not have to own an ereader to read ebooks.
Can you look up a word in a pbook? More precisely will the pbook tell you what the word means?
To some people that is very important which will in turn make the ebook more valuable to them. So they are willing to pay the price.
But, by the same token, I know people that think as a general rule that ebooks aren't worth anything but a first edition hardcover is very valuable.
Yes, the two could be the same price.

Now my opinion is: if you don't like the price of something don't buy it.

Last time I looked pbooks ranged from free to thousands of dollars.
Ebooks on the other hand range from free to $200.

So price is really not a good indicator of value.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by whismerhill

Sorry, I'll have to disagree again.
It's relevant to me, e.g. I refuse to pay extra for a feature which is included in the device I paid for already, Any electronic document is searchable, ebooks are no exception. I'm sorry I fail to see this any differently.
IF I had not paid for the device I'd agree but this is not the case

Your "I"s are all fine here. I don't think anyone here would have a single problem with you thinking and believing that way (other than not agreeing, of course). Where you go wrong is when you try to project your relevant points and your valuation as universal truths that should apply to everyone equally

You see less value where some of us see equal (or more); that's all. Neither is "wrong." We just value things differently. Nothing more nothing less.

It is impossible for me to be "abused & ripped off" by a company's pricing when I feel I'm getting my money's worth (or more). Especially When I'm not being forced to buy anything in the first place. What profits they take from my purchase is of no concern to me if I consider the price reasonable (the face value, not a price comparison to something I'm not interested in buying).

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

So price is really not a good indicator of value.

It's a very good indicator of value; in reality it's the only indicator of value, but it's also very accurate. Most especially with ebooks, where markets are efficient and there are no costs associated with storage, distribution and so forth. But good enough for all that with pbooks, too, given the internet and free/cheap shipping.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by whismerhill

I fail to see your point ?

The ebook business is doing fine without government meddling.

There is no aspect of the business that can be improved by dragging in idiot politicians (and certainly not the matters that concern the OP) but plenty of aspects they can mess up. Ergo, any government action will be a net negative. So, hands off.

Seriously, what is government going to do, force people who prefer print to stop buying pbooks? If ebooks are a good fit to people's needs, they'll adopt them on their own. If not, they'll stick to dead tree pulp. There is no social good being served there. Again, hands off.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by issybird

It's a very good indicator of value; in reality it's the only indicator of value, but it's also very accurate. Most especially with ebooks, where markets are efficient and there are no costs associated with storage, distribution and so forth. But good enough for all that with pbooks, too, given the internet and free/cheap shipping.

Would you agree that valuable is subjective?
I meant as far as what people value.
Let's say we buy identical purses. Yours cost $300 because you bought it at Fancy Store. Mine cost $75 because I bought it at Cheap Store.
Note everything about these purses are identical.
So who's purse has more value?
Or what about corn?
Store A's corn is 75 cents. Store B is 72 cents. Store C is 66 cents.
Note all three corns were processed and packaged at the same time. Only the labels are different. Which has the most value?
Books are the same way. The contents are the same, just different packaging.
So I respectfully disagree that price=value.

[issybird]

The purses, etc., have exactly the same value. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it; what was spent to acquire it is irrelevant.

In your example, obviously the purse market isn't efficient, but the ebook market pretty much is. There's no cost or cachet involved in buying ebooks at various purveyors. Amazon books don't come with an LV monogram.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by issybird

The purses, etc., have exactly the same value. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it; what was spent to acquire it is irrelevant.

In your example, obviously the purse market isn't efficient, but the ebook market pretty much is. There's no cost or cachet involved in buying ebooks at various purveyors. Amazon books don't come with an LV monogram.

Ok. In this case, we are both right. And I was thinking Coach.
Though yes to some people the $300 purse would be way more valuable since they spent way more on it.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Publishers would adapt better to ebooks by dropping DRM entirely.

As for piracy and declining sales — there is no decline in ebook sales. Any figures showing a decline in ebook sales only cover a fraction of the ebook market. Ebook sales are growing.

I may be wrong, but I'd heard they were down for the major publishers, but the indie market was seeing a large upswing. Since we were discussing major publishers that's what I was basing my statement on. Again I may be wrong on that.

And I agree entirely about ditching DRM, Tor did it awhile back and has seen no negative impact in their sales sufficient to change that policy. DRM, in my opinion, does nothing to discourage piracy and instead just hinders honest customers from using their ebooks.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by whismerhill

it is, but the feature is provided at the device level. the device actually process the action required. the book only acts as the data source.


irrelevant to who provides the feature.

So yeah, no need to go in circles & debate this. It's going to be a completely circular debate.
At least now I understand that if anything the price for ebooks' prices are gonna go up since people like you find it adds more value.

Personally I seldom use notes, bookmarks & searches, probably because my kindle 2 is a bit cumbersome to use those features, either way I just read. About the only thing I need is the "last page read" feature, and my wife does custom page markers for me and my pbooks

Originally Posted by whismerhill

My mistake forgot to escape this argument from my initial quote.


hu ... I disagree ???
I'm not exactly sure of what you're talking about, but the ability to change the display of text on the fly is provided by my kindle's firmware....



Do you realize how messed up that opinion is ?
Basically you're claiming your right to be completely abused & ripped off by companies with abusive ebook prices, just because you bought the device so hey... now you have it, you NEED to make use of it ???

I'm sorry I don't want to come off as rude or anything, also not trying to start a flame war. I'm just like... completely destabilized by your arguments ...

I actually forgot to include DiapDealer's backup argument.

Anyway...

I find your condescending belief that only your opinions matter to be quite worrying.
There are times I enjoy arguing against silliness, but this isn't one of them -- I don't really want to deal with the rudeness.

So I won't bother to debate this with you, instead I will simply say:

>/dev/null

Originally Posted by darryl

The distinction between whether a feature is provided by the device or by the ebook itself is artificial and irrelevant. What is relevant are the features available to the reader, not how or where in the chain they are provided. If you could not read, you could not enjoy the benefits or either pbooks or ebooks. Would you then say that the benefits of pbooks are not features of the books themselves but of your education?

Perceptions of value are subjective. There is no objective measure to say one perception of value is better than any other. My prediction, and it is only my opinion, is that prices of traditionally published ebooks will come down. Prices of some Indie/Self-Published books may also rise. It does not matter who sets the price but traditional publishers realise that their books must compete lest they continue to haemorrhage market share.

Thank you for coming to my defense.
But I am not sure it is worth it if it encourages further rude replies.

[darryl]

You certainly don't need me to defend you. I was responding to what I think is an argument which, being charitable, is somewhat lacking when it comes to logic.

And you're right, of course. Like another poster I can name, sometimes silence is golden.

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I may be wrong, but I'd heard they were down for the major publishers, but the indie market was seeing a large upswing. Since we were discussing major publishers that's what I was basing my statement on. Again I may be wrong on that.

And I agree entirely about ditching DRM, Tor did it awhile back and has seen no negative impact in their sales sufficient to change that policy. DRM, in my opinion, does nothing to discourage piracy and instead just hinders honest customers from using their ebooks.

Simon & Schuster's new SF imprint, Saga, appears to be without DRM as well. I don't know if this means S&S and Macmillian are, or will be, DRM-free across the board any time soon, but it would be nice.

Back to the pricing argument, it's usually just a temporary pricing artifact because the retailer may have sales on the print material for several reasons, including clearance sales, that causes the ebooks to be more expensive than the print editions but eventually the price of ebook ends up at or below the price of the cheapest print edition. I haven't seen anyone complain about the publishers trying to kill print sales by pricing the ebook less than the hard cover or trade paperback list price.