Sexism/racism etc in older fiction

[Froide]

Two instances come immediately to mind:

I couldn't stomach finishing Jack London's A Daughter of the Snows. Wikipedia notes: "Modern commentators have criticized the novel for its approval of the main character's view that Anglo-Saxons are racially superior." - source: Cassuto, Leonard; Reesman, Jeanne Campbell (1998). Rereading Jack London. Stanford University Press. p. 161. ISBN 9780804735162.

I did finish John Grisham's novel, A Time To Kill (1988), although I was shocked by the words and images he used to describe the black defendant, Carl Lee, padding toward him, barefoot, black, leathery soles slapping against the floor (or some words to that effect, which evoke images of an animal, not a man). Although I read the book years ago, when it was first released, I distinctly remember rereading that passage in an effort to give Grisham the benefit of the doubt - i.e., to discern whether Grisham was describing the prisoner through the lens of the culture depicted in the book, or through his own. Unfortunately, I concluded (reluctantly): the context in which Grisham cast that black character as subhuman reflects more on the author (who hails from Mississippi) and the way he was conditioning the reader to view the character, not on the redneck racists in the fictional Mississippi community where the book's set.

[EDITED to italicize A Daughter of the Snows, which I initially punctuated as if it were a short story.]

[barryem]

I can't see what you're alluding to in the quote from "A Time to Kill". It's been a few years since I last read that book but my memory of it is that he was sympathetic toward Carl Lee. Leathery sold can describe the feet of anyone who customarily goes barefoot when outdoors, as I did when I was in college and unwilling to waste what little money I had on shoes. I had very thick calluses on my feet and I could walk on hot pavement or gravel without much difficulty. I certainly had leathery soles. My feet weren't black although after a walk outside it might be hard to tell that.

I think you're mistaking what Grisham did in that book.

I decided before I hit Post I'd better check the book and make sure I was right. Well, I'm basically right and you're way off. I did searches and the word "padding" doesn't appear in the book. The only reference to barefoot refers to Lucien Wilbanks, an elderly lawyer who helps the defense.

"Leathery" does appear, describing the feet of Leroy, Carl Lee's cellmate.

I think you got this one wrong.

Barry

[JSWolf]

I've read A Time to Kill and I agree with Barry that you got it wrong.

[Cinisajoy]

I haven't read the book, but I can say that description matches most barefoot children in the South in the summer. And many adults too.
Froide,
Can I take a guess that you have never gone barefoot?
Yes, the description was rather southern, but it had nothing to do with race. It has to do with it is too hot to wear shoes in the summer, unless you like wet, sweaty, stinky, itchy, athletes feet.

Please come to anywhere in the south in August. Preferably the Gulf Coast. You will see why our kids go barefoot.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by Froide

..I did finish John Grisham's novel, A Time To Kill (1988), although I was shocked by the words and images he used to describe the black defendant, Carl Lee, padding toward him, barefoot, black, leathery soles slapping against the floor (or some words to that effect, which evoke images of an animal, not a man). Although I read the book years ago, when it was first released, I distinctly remember rereading that passage in an effort to give Grisham the benefit of the doubt - i.e., to discern whether Grisham was describing the prisoner through the lens of the culture depicted in the book, or through his own....

I also agree with Barry.

So much so that I searched the book for the reference you made. I searched separately on each of "leathery", "sole" (only a couple found, none of which in the context), "padding" (not found), "padded" (only found with reference to likes of padding on seats), and "black ". The only passage I could find that came even remotely close to what you claimed was

Leroy wore the standard Ford County jail issue of glow-in-the-dark orange coveralls. Pink sponge rollers shot in all directions from his scalp, and two long greasy cornrows clung to the back of his neck. His black leathery feet were protected from the dirty linoleum by a pair of lime green terry-cloth slides. No socks. A wicked, aged scar started next to his right earlobe, made the ridge over his cheekbone, and connected neatly with his right nostril. It proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Leroy was no stranger to stabbings and carvings. He wore it like a medal. He smoked Kools.

Unless there is some other passage that I did not find with my searches, it was Leroy Glass whose black feet were referred to (not Carl Lee's), and nothing like "padding towards him", "soles slapping against the floor" etc. in the passage {EDIT: (nor any other passage that I could find)}.

In my reading the description of "black leathery feet" instead of just "leathery feet" is justified in that it paints the contrast between the color of the feet and the lime green terry-cloth slides on them.

I would be interested in any other passage which I may have missed but to which you were referring in making your claim.

[4691mls]

I haven't read the book being discussed, but I've seen "padded" used plenty of times in lots of different books to describe someone walking quietly without shoes. I've never found it to have any negative connotation.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by GlennD

Edgar Rice Burroughs is an author that I always struggle with a little bit. The Mucker has Japanese bad guys, and I was amazed at the racism when I read it the first time. I would have almost understood it if it had been written during or immediately after WW2, but it was written in 1913. The Japanese villains are quite one dimensional with lots of references to the "Japs", their yellow skin and eye shape. The Tarzan novels also always seemed pretty condescending to the native African tribes that Tarzan encounters.

I see the racism but to some degree just chalk it up to the era. I don't tend to criticize someone for being in line with the prevailing thought of their time. (Rising above the prevailing thought is noteworthy and commendable though! Many well known historical figures {example, Thomas Jefferson} are progressive in specific areas but in line with their time in others.) It doesn't stop me from continuing to read and enjoy ERB's books.

Actually, the japanese society of that time was the same of 1941.
The only difference was that in 1941 they came after the US the way they went after the russians, the chinese, and the Koreans earlier.
They were a bit late to the "great game" of the 19th century but they took to it with gusto and even the liberals and progressives of the time were pretty ticked at them.

Burroughs in those days wrote to market expectations and those expectations were that japanese were really nasty types. So that's how he wrote them. Likewise he wrote germans as villains in the teens, heroes in the 20's and early 30's, and villains again in the 40's.

Likewise, he wrote cliche indians in his westerns even though, as a veteran of the "indian wars", he knew better. It was only much later, in APACHE DEVIL and THE WAR CHIEF duo that he felt confident enough to portray them sympathetically. And even there he hedged his bets and made the protagonist a "white indian".

For that matter, today's readers might not quite get the reason why THE MUCKER was irish. You have to pay close attention to both the story and the times to appreciate how slyly subversive ERB was. He wasn't just a spinner of fun pulp adventures. Try giving some thought to the central theme of the Tarzan stories...

[barryem]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've read A Time to Kill and I agree with Barry that you got it wrong.

Omigod! Now I'm doubting myself.

Barry

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I haven't read the book, but I can say that description matches most barefoot children in the South in the summer. And many adults too.
Froide,
Can I take a guess that you have never gone barefoot?
Yes, the description was rather southern, but it had nothing to do with race. It has to do with it is too hot to wear shoes in the summer, unless you like wet, sweaty, stinky, itchy, athletes feet.

Please come to anywhere in the south in August. Preferably the Gulf Coast. You will see why our kids go barefoot.

The only trip I took to the south-east USA while a youngster, I was warned against going barefoot. I seem to remember chiggers(?) was the reason.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The only trip I took to the south-east USA while a youngster, I was warned against going barefoot. I seem to remember chiggers(?) was the reason.

Chiggers didn't care if you were barefoot or not. They loved legs and arms too.
I took many a calamine bath in my great grandmother's claw foot tub.

[BelleZora]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The only trip I took to the south-east USA while a youngster, I was warned against going barefoot. I seem to remember chiggers(?) was the reason.

Hookworm infection is transmitted primarily from walking barefoot on contaminated soil.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by BelleZora

Hookworm infection is transmitted primarily from walking barefoot on contaminated soil.

I had never heard of hookworms until I was grown. Interesting.

[Froide]

RE: A Time to Kill

Originally Posted by barryem

I can't see what you're alluding to in the quote from "A Time to Kill". It's been a few years since I last read that book but my memory of it is that he was sympathetic toward Carl Lee. Leathery sold can describe the feet of anyone who customarily goes barefoot when outdoors, as I did when I was in college and unwilling to waste what little money I had on shoes. I had very thick calluses on my feet and I could walk on hot pavement or gravel without much difficulty. I certainly had leathery soles. My feet weren't black although after a walk outside it might be hard to tell that.

I think you're mistaking what Grisham did in that book.

I decided before I hit Post I'd better check the book and make sure I was right. Well, I'm basically right and you're way off. I did searches and the word "padding" doesn't appear in the book. The only reference to barefoot refers to Lucien Wilbanks, an elderly lawyer who helps the defense.

"Leathery" does appear, describing the feet of Leroy, Carl Lee's cellmate.

I think you got this one wrong.

Barry

Like you, Barry, I read the book decades ago (as I stated). However, unlike you (unfortunately), I don't have the book at hand. Therefore, I qualified my attempt to describe the passage that left a long-lasting, discomfiting impression with, "or some words to that effect", and I misremembered the detail that Grisham was not describing Carl Lee but his cellmate. (Thank you for that correction.) Nonetheless, my descriptions of my discomfiture with that part of the book and the way I handled it at the time are accurate.

You - and some downstream posters in this thread - disagree with my interpretation of, and therefore my reaction to, that passage, attributing it to the fact that I might not have gone barefoot or (as another poster surmises) spent time in the South. Good guesses, but wrong on both counts.

FYI, it's worth noting: I enjoy (most of) Grisham's writing and through it, the way he tackles many issues.

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

I would be interested in any other passage which I may have missed but to which you were referring in making your claim.

Yes, it was a confluence of details, all the specifics of which I don't remember, although I distinctly recall my discomfiture. This thread, in general, and this conversation about A Time to Kill, specifically, do make me want to reread the book.

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I haven't read the book being discussed, but I've seen "padded" used plenty of times in lots of different books to describe someone walking quietly without shoes. I've never found it to have any negative connotation.

As someone who has the book handy pointed out above, the use of the word "padding" is mine, not Grisham's; I used it in trying to describe the passage I remembered reading and reacting to back in 1988. "Padding" doesn't bother me - I use the term, myself. Rather, it was the image Grisham painted of an African American prisoner's black leathery soles, combined with some other details I don't recall, that discomfited me back then. It's the impression I remember more than the specific details.

[Froide]

Deleted and merged into one post RE: A Time to Kill

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Many were no different than slaves as those to whom they were indentured could claim they broke their agreement and have years added on to their servitude.

There were also Irish slaves, without the pretense of being "indentured."

And without any pretence that a short life was not part of the intent.