Who will fill the gap if B&N collapses

[darryl]

Quite a few interesting points of view here. Some suggest that there really will be no significant vacuum for various reasons. And this could be right. The New Republic article suggested that B&N accounted for 30% of sales of some publishing houses. The accuracy of this figure has been questioned, and it is hardly a definitive statistic, just a throwaway line. It suggests that B&N's overall share of the market is something less than 30%, though not how much less.

Thanks to fjtorres who is much better informed than I, who indicates the last figure he saw was 17% down even from 20% in 2016. Though I'm not sure that Shatzkin's suggestion that B&N won't be that important to tradpub by the time it collapses gives tradpub much comfort. Predators don't need to wait until the prey is actually dead before they feast. And make no mistake, the feast is in progress.

I'm not suggesting that Amazon is planning to have near as many physical stores as B&N, nor have many if any stores outside of major cities. They already have much of this business online. Simply that Amazon's physical stores are one element in its overall strategy. Amazon enjoyed the Borders feast but also learned some lessons from it. It has positioned itself to consume a much greater share this time.

Bon appetit Amazon.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

B&M bookshops do some important and useful work: they select the books they want to display,
.

No.
B&N bookstores do not generally have the freedom to select which books to display. The most prominent display positions are sold by corporate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/23/bo...urt-sales.html

The rest are selected by B&N corporate buyers. A B&N store featuring 50,000 titles might stock a few hundred selected by local staff. And be featured on one shelf in a back room under "Of local interest". Typically these will be regional tourist guides, local history, or restaurant guides.

https://publishingperspectives.com/2...-thug-to-love/

Barnes and noble is not and never has been a cozy bookshop that steers readers to good, fun reads. Rather, they and Borders were the reason why thousands of cozy family owned bookshops went out of business in the 80's and 90's,long before Amazon even existed.
In fact, right around the time Amazon first popped up, ca. 1995, the American Booksellers association repeatedly sued Borders, B&N, and the big publishers for violating antitrust laws by offering preferential pricing terms to Borders and B&N that were unavailable to bookshops. They "won" at least once.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories...l#.WcGYk14pDMI

In fact, as Amazon was first starting up, publishers hoped to use them to free themselves of the "tyranny of the B&N corporate buyer".

[darryl]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

No.In fact, as Amazon was first starting up, publishers hoped to use them to free themselves of the "tyranny of the B&N corporate buyer".

Thanks. I hadn't heard that one. And, unlike many plans of publishers, it worked! They are no longer subject to the tyranny of hte B&N corporate buyer. They must be very satisfied at this coup.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by darryl

I'm not suggesting that Amazon is planning to have near as many physical stores as B&N, nor have many if any stores outside of major cities. They already have much of this business online. Simply that Amazon's physical stores are one element in its overall strategy. Amazon enjoyed the Borders feast but also learned some lessons from it. It has positioned itself to consume a much greater share this time.

Bon appetit Amazon.

As long as the big publishers keep trying to steer readers away from ebooks and to print, Amazon will keep on feasting because most of their biggest challengers in ebooks(Apple, Kobo, Google) don't sell pbooks.

The big publishers keep trying to limit the adoption of ebooks to "reduce Amazon's power" but instead they keep hurting Amazon's competitors and giving Amazon even more power.

http://authorearnings.com/report/dbw2017/

With enemies like those you barely need friends.

[Panchax]

I think that the B&M bookstore has been replaced by the library. It is the place to go if you want to browse books, and it even lets you borrow them before you buy them . Mine even lends ebooks, and I hope to soon get a New York Public Library card that will get me free access to one of the world's biggest online libraries. I buy my pbooks on eBay, Abe's Books, library sales and other used places. I am yet to buy an ebook. I dislike Amazon, as I feel it is a monster (nothing to do with books). I do go to my B&N sometimes, as it is my only 'local' bookstore, and I have bought many books there. It always seems busy, but they probably sell more coffee and cake then books. However, I prefer to go to my library. The only thing that beats my library, other than the New York Public Library, are the little bookstores in NYC. The idea that B&N is what killed the little bookstores near me to begin with is an interesting one that somehow makes Amazon seem like a case of 'what goes around comes around'.

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

No.
B&N bookstores do not generally have the freedom to select which books to display. The most prominent display positions are sold by corporate.

I was talking about B&M (brick and mortar), not a specific brand - and mostly bookstores where the employees' job is not just to fill shelves and collect payment - mostly, independent boostores, but that's not 100% identical.

[FizzyWater]

Originally Posted by darryl

In cities with Amazon warehouses close by it is not inconceivable that you could order a book not on the premises, go off and have a coffee and cake for an hour and come back to pick up your book. And yes, Amazon stores promote their hardware, promote books and other products, promote Prime Membership. The potential advantage of even one such store in each large US City are enormous.

Amazon recently set up a "pick up" storefront here in Columbus, near the Ohio State University. They email I got says same day pickup, if ordered by noon. I haven't checked it out - bad knees and no nearby parking (nearby meaning handicapped parking close, not halfway down the block close).

[Wearever]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

As long as the big publishers keep trying to steer readers away from ebooks and to print, Amazon will keep on feasting because most of their biggest challengers in ebooks(Apple, Kobo, Google) don't sell pbooks.

The big publishers keep trying to limit the adoption of ebooks to "reduce Amazon's power" but instead they keep hurting Amazon's competitors and giving Amazon even more power.

http://authorearnings.com/report/dbw2017/

With enemies like those you barely need friends.

True. I agree Amazon will fill in the gap. The small bookstores will also benefit .

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

I was talking about B&M (brick and mortar), not a specific brand - and mostly bookstores where the employees' job is not just to fill shelves and collect payment - mostly, independent boostores, but that's not 100% identical.

I think this is a cultural thing. We don't have many independent book stores, except for specialty stores. Most of our B&M stores are ran by corporations. The individual store employees have to display whatever the corporate office decides.

I may be wrong but I think I read that France has very few big box stores. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I see you said books can't be discounted, does this apply to other things as well?

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I think this is a cultural thing. We don't have many independent book stores, except for specialty stores. Most of our B&M stores are ran by corporations. The individual store employees have to display whatever the corporate office decides.

It's not a purely French thing. I was in Scotland last summer, and in a Waterstone's (probably not a huge brand, but still a name you'll find all across UK) some of the books came with written recommendations from the store employees on the shelves - signed, so if you bought a book on one's recommendation and liked it, you could try others recommended by the same person.

I may be wrong but I think I read that France has very few big box stores. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I see you said books can't be discounted, does this apply to other things as well?

It depends on what you'd call "big" but bookstores larger than just the ground floor of a building are rare - you'd only find one in a major city, if that. Anything bigger is usually selling much more than books (like, CDs and DVDs, possibly computers, cameras - it's not just a bookstore, and usually books are only a small part of the business).

The law against discounting books is very specific to books. It was voted in the early '80s, intended as a way of protecting small bookshops from being driven out of business by, typically, supermarkets. That was way before ebooks or electronic distribution of anything, so I'm not sure whether it applies to, say, ebooks, and it certainly says nothing about music or movies. It worked reasonably well; small bookstores do still exist around here. I don't know if it influenced, say, the way the publishing industry evolved (we have lots of small publishing companies, but then, book publishing is hardly a global market - people will almost exclusively buy books in their own language).

I'm not even sure how this law applies to books published in other countries. Books published in France always have their price printed on the back cover, and bookstores are not allowed to discount it by more than 5%, or offer promotions like "buy 2 get one free".

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

It's not a purely French thing. I was in Scotland last summer, and in a Waterstone's (probably not a huge brand, but still a name you'll find all across UK) some of the books came with written recommendations from the store employees on the shelves - signed, so if you bought a book on one's recommendation and liked it, you could try others recommended by the same person.



It depends on what you'd call "big" but bookstores larger than just the ground floor of a building are rare - you'd only find one in a major city, if that. Anything bigger is usually selling much more than books (like, CDs and DVDs, possibly computers, cameras - it's not just a bookstore, and usually books are only a small part of the business).

The law against discounting books is very specific to books. It was voted in the early '80s, intended as a way of protecting small bookshops from being driven out of business by, typically, supermarkets. That was way before ebooks or electronic distribution of anything, so I'm not sure whether it applies to, say, ebooks, and it certainly says nothing about music or movies. It worked reasonably well; small bookstores do still exist around here. I don't know if it influenced, say, the way the publishing industry evolved (we have lots of small publishing companies, but then, book publishing is hardly a global market - people will almost exclusively buy books in their own language).

I'm not even sure how this law applies to books published in other countries. Books published in France always have their price printed on the back cover, and bookstores are not allowed to discount it by more than 5%, or offer promotions like "buy 2 get one free".

You misunderstood my big box store comment. I thought you might. Let me try to rephrase. Not big as in the size of the store, but big box as in the stores buy in large quantities to resell. Examples would be Walmart, Home Depot, Lowe's, Academy, Best Buy. Pretty much, whether you are in Texas or Washington, you will find the same brands at cheaper prices than say your local stores.
Here on books, the stores buy X number of copies for whatever the publisher wants to sell them for. Example: The latest bestseller: the publisher might sell it to B&N for $5 a copy if they buy in lots of 100,000 or more. The local bookstore would have to pay at least $15 a copy if they bought 100 or less. So even publishers charge different prices per quantity. (Numbers are made up because I don't have the actual figures.) Then the seller decides the price they want from the consumer.
Oh that theory is on most items not just books.

[barryem]

I wonder if Amazon will really let B&N go under. As soon as they go out of business Amazon is the only place to buy books. People already call them a monopoly, correct or not, and if B&N goes away that'll increase mightily.

Anybody remember when Apple was about to go under and Microsoft made a very large cash investment in them, probably with that same issue in mind. That saved Apple and it probably was as important to the welfare of Microsoft.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Amazon was investing in B&N. They need competition. More important, we need them to have competition. While I've been the victim of B&N's poor service a couple of times, and while I live in a small town decades of miles from a B&N store, I'd really hate to see them go away. They're pretty important to us. And to Amazon. And I'd be surprised if Amazon doesn't think so too.

Barry

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

You misunderstood my big box store comment. I thought you might. Let me try to rephrase. Not big as in the size of the store, but big box as in the stores buy in large quantities to resell. Examples would be Walmart, Home Depot, Lowe's, Academy, Best Buy. Pretty much, whether you are in Texas or Washington, you will find the same brands at cheaper prices than say your local stores.

OK - so we do have many "big box" brands, typically supermarkets belong to one of a small number of brands. But since they don't get to discount books, they don't have any leverage on publishers and I don't think they get bulk prices for them (I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the "no discount" law for books only applies to final resellers; still, since the publisher knows the reseller will not be allowed to change the price, I don't think he'd have a strong incentive to sell in bulk at lower prices).

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by barryem

I wonder if Amazon will really let B&N go under. As soon as they go out of business Amazon is the only place to buy books. People already call them a monopoly, correct or not, and if B&N goes away that'll increase mightily.

Anybody remember when Apple was about to go under and Microsoft made a very large cash investment in them, probably with that same issue in mind. That saved Apple and it probably was as important to the welfare of Microsoft.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Amazon was investing in B&N. They need competition. More important, we need them to have competition. While I've been the victim of B&N's poor service a couple of times, and while I live in a small town decades of miles from a B&N store, I'd really hate to see them go away. They're pretty important to us. And to Amazon. And I'd be surprised if Amazon doesn't think so too.

Barry

I can buy books at Walmart and every grocery store. Sorry, no monopoly.
As long as there is even one other place to buy the same thing then there cannot be a monopoly. MONO means ONE.

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by barryem

I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Amazon was investing in B&N. They need competition. More important, we need them to have competition.

Is it still called competition if you're investing in your competitor?