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Old 05-22-2020, 07:10 AM   #16
murraypaul
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
From the complaints I read about Kindles, it seems the experience is not all that good given they spend a long time trying to jailbreak the Kindle to get it to do things that Kobo does out of the box.
You see people in the Kindle forums here trying to find how to jailbreak their devices. They are completely unrepresentative of most Kindle owners, who are just buying a device to read books from Amazon, and have no interest in fiddling with it.

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Also, older Kobos are still supported. Older Kindles are dreadful because they are not supported and the firmware is not all that nice. Why is it that Amazon cannot create Kindles that will be able to be supported?
At the same time you are complaining that Amazon are still supporting old Kindle devices by delivering Mobi rather than KF8 to the very old devices.
Just something else about Amazon to complain about.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:11 AM   #17
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There are lots of pros and cons to owning Kindles v Kobos (I have both).

Kindles tend IMHO to have a higher physical build quality.
I highly disagree on this one. Kindles are not better then Kobo.

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Kindles make small evolutionary changes in firmware updates. Kobo is getting better but they have a habit of making fairly radical changes to the UI. When you can't find the menu item that was "right there" in the previous firmware version that's not a positive.
Kobo is innovative where Amazon is stale. Kobo allows these innovations to also be available on much older devices whereas Amazon says nope, can't have it. Heck, Amazon has end-of-lifed the PW3.

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Kobos are far far easier to install other apps on. No need to jailbreak.
I agree.

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Kobos have library support through ADE and for some models, direct on the device. Kindles - where I live - don't have either.

But most of these things don't matter that much. I use all my ereaders. They all do the job of putting words on an eInk screen. When one can't do something I know is possible on another it's an irritation but not a big deal.
It seems to be a big deal to some as they try all kinds of things to jailbreak their Kindles to try to get them to do things that Kobo does without jailbreaking or patching. One of the big deals is to have the book's cover on the sleep screen. Also, a real irritation that's being reported on MR is the loss of the cover thumbnails for side loaded books. This are things that are not an issue for Kobo.

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I do sort of agree with your underlying premise that it makes more sense to reward a manufacturer that gives you the features you want by buying their device, than by buying a device that doesn't and having to rely on jailbreaks, hacks and patches. However I'm not sure that message gets back to Amazon (or Kobo) clearly. Especially since the proportion of people jailbreaking their Kindle is probably a rounding error to them.
I think there could be a lot more people who want their Kindle to do something it cannot do they have no idea about jailbreaking. I know there are a lot that want smaller margins and a smaller line height but Amazon won't listen.

the other problem is that Amazon tries to keep the Kindle simple, but they keep it too simple. Amazon treats customers like children. Kobo treats customers like adults.

I agree that you should buy a device that does what you want instead of one that doesn't do what you want.

I know Amazon has the email to Kindle feature, but most people will end up with a Mobi format eBook and they could lose formatting/features of the eBook and end up with a worse reading experience. When you live outside of the US, Kindles are poor for library use as you cannot get a compatible eBook.

Another problem is people see very bad reviews of Kobo vs Kindle from GoodEReader on YouTube and don't know that the Kobo is that much better because GoodEReader dumbs down the Kobo for the Kobo to match the Kindle and they don't explain the differences. properly. So to the average person, Kobo seems to be no better then the Kindle.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:15 AM   #18
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I read lots of ebooks in pdf. My Kindle Oasis provides an acceptable pdf reading experience. My Kobo Aura One does not. This is the main reason I use my Kindle Oasis as my main ereader - it's a single e-ink device that can handle all the file formats I use. If Kobo upped their native pdf game, I would consider switching. I tried installing Koreader - it does match the Kindle in terms of pdf experience. But, running dual operating systems ruins the experience of browsing through my library (especially since Koreader is not pretty).
I have to disagree about KOReader and PDF. I don't use KOReader, but I have seen a video showing KOReader with PDF and it's a much better experience then you get from Kindle or Kobo (without KOReader). For example, KOReader can show the PDF without the margins which is a big deal as it then make the PDF content larger on screen.

I cannot say if KOReader is pretty or not, but I can say that the PDF experience is much better.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:22 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
You see people in the Kindle forums here trying to find how to jailbreak their devices. They are completely unrepresentative of most Kindle owners, who are just buying a device to read books from Amazon, and have no interest in fiddling with it.
I also said that there are people who aren't trying to jailbreak who want the Kindle to do some things that Kobo can already do.

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At the same time you are complaining that Amazon are still supporting old Kindle devices by delivering Mobi rather than KF8 to the very old devices.
Just something else about Amazon to complain about.
I'm complaining that Mobi still exists. Other formats such as eReader & LIT have gone away because the companies behind them realized it was time to let them go. Amazon could do away with Mobi and come out with firmware for the older Kindles to handle KF8 instead. That would solve the problem and allow Mobi to die. Another option is when the KF8 formatting doesn't translate well enough to Mobi, allow the ePub to be uploaded as KF8 only. Most eBooks will be OK in Mobi. But this is only if Amazon is unable to swap Mobi for KF8 in any of the older Kindles. The other problem is we are still seeing Amazon selling the DX when it's seriously obsolete.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:01 AM   #20
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I highly disagree on this one. Kindles are not better then Kobo.
It's just been my experience. I've never had a Kindle with a dead pixel or uneven lighting. I have had Kobos with those problems.

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Kobo is innovative where Amazon is stale. Kobo allows these innovations to also be available on much older devices whereas Amazon says nope, can't have it. Heck, Amazon has end-of-lifed the PW3.
True but I'd still rather pick up my ereader and know where the menu is that does the thing than have to re-learn that every time.


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It seems to be a big deal to some as they try all kinds of things to jailbreak their Kindles to try to get them to do things that Kobo does without jailbreaking or patching. One of the big deals is to have the book's cover on the sleep screen. Also, a real irritation that's being reported on MR is the loss of the cover thumbnails for side loaded books. This are things that are not an issue for Kobo.
All I can say is those things are not a big deal for me. It's nice to be able to have the cover as a screensaver. It's not worth the hassle of jailbreaking for. It's certainly not a buying decision criterion.

Most of these things are software. I've always found it fascinating that these devices have regular software updates that can potentially change the usability and features radically. I mean you buy a TV and yes it's got software in there these days of course, but you're not expecting that it will have entirely new features in a year's time because of firmware updates.

Equally, companies are selling devices based on a collection of features. To me most of these things - are minor. They add up to an experience that is better or worse. Individually they are either papercuts or small pleasures.

So I don't know how you put a value on that. But Kobo and Amazon et al do exactly that when they decide what the budget for development and maintenance of the firmware is. More than that they have to decide which features/bugs to focus on. The line from "better control over margins" for e.g. to X new Kindles or Y new ebooks sold, is unclear. Even with the massive amount of data they have, that's got to be an interesting judgement call.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:28 AM   #21
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There are lots of pros and cons to owning Kindles v Kobos (I have both).

Kindles tend IMHO to have a higher physical build quality.
I use both Kindle and Kobo (plus Tolinos, Sonys, Nooks and a PocketBook). The main knock against Kobo (and I don't have a high-end model) is that page turning seems much "iffier" than with a Kindle (or any other touch screen reader that I've used). I find myself double-tapping a lot, especially after moving over from a Kobo competitor. Also, for me, it's almost too customizable — I tend totinker with the settings all the time, almost like a nervous twitch. I think Sony still renders fonts better than any of them. Also, Kobos don't handle ePubs very well (lots of empty space on the bottom of screens, which is kind of irritating), and I don't like the one page per screen numbering for KePubs. Amazon has a lot of well-formatted public domain books that often sell for $1.00 that aren't available anywhere else (at least in subjects I read). It's convenient to buy them from the Kindle and just download directly to the reader.

All that said, I don't hate Kobos, but I don't think they're head and shoulders above their competitors. I think for pure quality, nothing outshines the Kindle Voyage.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:01 AM   #22
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I cannot say if KOReader is pretty or not, but I can say that the PDF experience is much better.
You haven't used Koreader to read pdfs. So, you cannot comment on the pdf reading experience. You can comment that you think it looks better.

I have used both the Kindle and Koreader to read pdfs, so I can comment on the pdf reading experience. I found them roughly equal. I read pdf in landscape view, and the Kindle automatically removes the margins. I read challenging books, and so I appreciate using the Oxford English dictionary, which is installed by default. Which is the default dictionary installed on Koreader? None. You have to find and install one. Can you search through your library? It appears not. Can you create collections in Koreader? It appears not. You can browse by folder structure, which is great, but it means if you want the same book in two collections, you have to have two copies of it.

If you are happy to switch fully to Koreader, then Kobos offer adequate pdf experience, perhaps slighly superior to the Kindle. However, I am not happy to switch fully to Koreader.

If you do not want to switch fully to Koreader and abandon the native software (Nickel), you have to dual-boot between them. Having to switch between operating systems to browse your library is laughably clunky and inconvenient. For those who prefer the smoother UI and superior library management of the native operating systems, dual booting between Koreader and Nickel is not a serious suggestion. There is simply no need to install an unofficial, limited operating system, vastly complicating your browsing experience just to provide an adequate pdf reading experience, when Kindles can do it right out of the box.

Bottom line: If you read lots of pdf and you prefer to stick with the native operating system/user interface, like I do, then Kindle is the better option.

Last edited by Braid; 05-22-2020 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:33 AM   #23
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While the superior native pdf support is the main reason my Kindle is my main reader, I also like reading reflowable books in landscape view, which Kindles offer. I believe the Forma and Libra offer this, but my Aura One does not.
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:06 AM   #24
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I also had hoped that buying from CA/UK store from USA would be easier but I have not had success with that yet.
It is easier to do on Kobo than Amazon.

In your thread about it, I posted A LOT (because I am verbose), but I would say in the end, it's pretty easy to do.

And of course, there's the option to leave Kobo set to UK all the time and buy US books from Amazon.
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:09 AM   #25
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If You buy Your books from Amazon and download on Your Kindle with wi fii without do nothing else You have ligatures and generally a better typography than if You do the same thing from Kobo.

Say what You want about KFX, and many criticisms that are made of it are right, but Kepub typography is really something you don't expect from a big company like Rakuten Kobo (no ligatures, broken lines...)
I really don't understand why Kobo hasn't put in the elbow grease to polish kepub layout. It really is pretty bad. Once Amazon introduced their new layout engine and KFX, I wish Kobo would have taken on the challenge and done something.
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:16 AM   #26
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While the superior native pdf support is the main reason my Kindle is my main reader, I also like reading reflowable books in landscape view, which Kindles offer. I believe the Forma and Libra offer this, but my Aura One does not.
There's no need to deprive yourself of landscape on your AuraOne. If you want it you can enable the hidden unofficial option by adding a couple of lines to your config file .kobo/Kobo/Kobo eReader.conf using a good text editor:
Code:
[DeveloperSettings]
ForceAllowLandscape=true
You only need the second line if the first is already present. It's a one-off task and should survive firmware updates. I'm not going to say it's a slick implementation - it is unofficial, after all - but it is a harmless additional option to try.
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:25 AM   #27
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I really don't understand why Kobo hasn't put in the elbow grease to polish kepub layout. It really is pretty bad. Once Amazon introduced their new layout engine and KFX, I wish Kobo would have taken on the challenge and done something.
Yeah. I would happily switch to kepubs then, because reading epubs on a Kobo is far from perfect (no image zooming, searching is much slower, etc.)
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:31 AM   #28
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There's no need to deprive yourself of landscape on your AuraOne. If you want it you can enable the hidden unofficial option by adding a couple of lines to your config file .kobo/Kobo/Kobo eReader.conf using a good text editor:
Code:
[DeveloperSettings]
ForceAllowLandscape=true
You only need the second line if the first is already present. It's a one-off task and should survive firmware updates. I'm not going to say it's a slick implementation - it is unofficial, after all - but it is a harmless additional option to try.
Nice, thanks for the info! Wish I had known about this several years ago, hehe.
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:54 AM   #29
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If you do not want to switch fully to Koreader and abandon the native software (Nickel), you have to dual-boot between them. Having to switch between operating systems to browse your library is laughably clunky and inconvenient. For those who prefer the smoother UI and superior library management of the native operating systems, dual booting between Koreader and Nickel is not a serious suggestion. There is simply no need to install an unofficial, limited operating system, vastly complicating your browsing experience just to provide an adequate pdf reading experience, when Kindles can do it right out of the box.
Could you explain why you think that Nickel or KOReader are operating systems? Both of them are programs that run under the Kobo's Linux operating system. Much like switching between Gnome, KDE, etc. on a Linux desktop. With the newer setups switching between Nickel, KOReader and Plato is relatively fast and easy.

And I have used Kobo and Kindle native PDF not to mention KOReader on both platforms and Plato on the Kobo. An adequate PDF reading experience is not the word I would use for any of them compared to an iPad Pro or my laptop. Painful is perhaps a better description the last time I had to use my Forma to look at a A2 sized diagram.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:33 PM   #30
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Could you explain why you think that Nickel or KOReader are operating systems? Both of them are programs that run under the Kobo's Linux operating system.
I called them operating systems because that's what I thought they were called. Thanks for correcting me.

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Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
And I have used Kobo and Kindle native PDF not to mention KOReader on both platforms and Plato on the Kobo. An adequate PDF reading experience is not the word I would use for any of them compared to an iPad Pro or my laptop. Painful is perhaps a better description the last time I had to use my Forma to look at a A2 sized diagram.
My standard for 'adequate' is my being able to read a book from start to finish with minimal distractions, such that I forget about the e-reader and focus only on the content of the book. With Kindles I can do this; I just need to turn the pages normally using the page-turn buttons, which load roughly as quickly as any other ebook. In landscape view the page is divided into 3 so as to omit the margins and increase the zoom. This is annoying at first, but I forget about it. On the other hand using Kobo, I am constantly distracted by having to zoom in and out and drag the viewer across the page, which is unresponsive and slow, and the page is going blank and re-loading all the time. It is a disaster.

I have not tried to read A2 sized diagram pdfs on either device, but I can imagine it would be painful, like you say, and not worth the effort. I have read some multi-column books on my Kindle and I have to zoom in and drag the viewer around, and it clunky and slow and unresponsive. But, most of the pdfs I read are single-column academic books and articles, and for that, my Kindle requires no zooming or dragging of the viewer, and is therefore adequate, while my Kobo is not.
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