Is today's SF too pessimistic?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

"Groo the Wanderer". Get it right and pass the cheese dip. And be careful not to mix it with the mulch.

It's been ages since I unpacked my Groos...
...but yes, I keep them away from the Sage's pup.

Speaking of doggies, I was practically expecting Rudolfo to show up on Angel, during the Groo arc.
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0030989/bio

The Groosalugg is a native of Pylea, a hell dimension where humans are treated as slaves and called cows. He is part demon and part human, but apparently more human since his only non-human physical characteristic is a pair of brightly colored eyes. He also speaks with unique syntax, bordering on kitsch. Because of his human heritage, he was banished to the "Scumpits of Ur" where he was to die, but instead defeated every creature that attacked him. This earned him a reputation for bravery and combat skill, and as such he wandered the countryside as an undefeated champion, or Groosalugg.

Whedon is pretty much without shame and I am looking forward to AVENGERS because of this.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ApK

Wow, this thread is really making me want to turn my hand to writing some SF.

Go to it.
You never know what you can or can't do unless you try.
And if you can't, you'll still gain extra insight into the genre.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ApK

I disagree in principal and in the particular. Just because people do a lot of derivitive stuff in a genre doesn't mean that a brilliant idea won't come along tomorrow that raises the genre to a new level.
(like firefly did for space westerns imho)

The oldest SF trope is the travelogue.
(Stanley Weinbaum's MARTIAN ODYSSEY, for example.)
Early on there were so many, Campbell practically refused them on principle during the Golden Age of ASTOUNDING. That didn't stop Farmer or Harrison (GREEN ODYSSEY, DEATHWORLD Series) from using that "hoary old" format in the 50s-60s to great effect. Or John Ringo in VORPAL BLADE much more recently. (Among others.)

For that matter, Roddenberry might have sold STAR TREK as "Wagon Train to the stars" but the format for the original series and the bulk of STNG was the travelogue ("To boldly go..."). Mix in some morality play and you have the core ST formula.

Fast forward another generation or so and you get the STARGATEs.
(Even the near-miss SLIDERS was a travelogue at heart.)

Everything old is new again...
...when somebody does something worthy with it.

Simply put, you never know where the next great story is coming from.
Might even be time for a new take on SF travelogues...

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The oldest SF trope is the travelogue.

People have always (for whatever reason) wanted to hear stories about adventurers who travel to strange lands and meet strange people. This was as true in the time of the Odyssey as it was when Stanley's books about exploring Africa were popular.

The problem is that we mostly explored everything and met most of the strange people on earth by 1900. Which was just in time for certain genres of SF to come along and pick up the slack by journeying to strange new worlds, etc.

SF is a lot of different things...but one part of it is simply an opportunity for someone to travel to a strange land and interact with the strange autochthones and observe their curious customs. Or vice versa.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

SF is a lot of different things...but one part of it is simply an opportunity for someone to travel to a strange land and interact with the strange autochthones and observe their curious customs. Or vice versa.

Uh-huh.
The Vice-versa has given us some pretty good stories in decades past.
Hal Clement's ICE WORLD comes to mind.
Sometimes *we* are the strange autochthones hosting the intrepid explorers.

SF is at its best when it can be different things to different people at the same time; presenting both sides of a conflict so that to some people the story appears optimistic (Yay! the good guys won!) while to others pessimistic (Do those people realize the disaster they've just created for themselves?).

In LENSMEN you root for the Galactic Patrol and the Arisian camp as they hurl light-speed planets at the fortified bases of the Eddorian proxies or blow up their suns. Never mind the poor enslaved BEMS who had no say in electing their tyrannical leaders or even learned to sing Kumbaya.

Optimistic? Pesimistic? The good guys win... through genocide.
Uplifting for the Galactic Patrol kicking Boskone rears but definitely a downer for the Boskonians. But it's all in good fun.

(And the Galactic Patrol definitely stood their ground on that one. )

SF: Ideas explored for fun and insight.
We just need more explorers.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

In LENSMEN you root for the Galactic Patrol and the Arisian camp as they hurl light-speed planets at the fortified bases of the Eddorian proxies or blow up their suns. Never mind the poor enslaved BEMS who had no say in electing their tyrannical leaders or even learned to sing Kumbaya.

Optimistic? Pesimistic? The good guys win... through genocide.
Uplifting for the Galactic Patrol kicking Boskone rears but definitely a downer for the Boskonians. But it's all in good fun.

While I don't agree with the derisive politicizing of this sort of thing (by some folks, not necessary in the quote above) it did remind of this, which I've always thought was funny:

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ApK

While I don't agree with the derisive politicizing of this sort of thing (by some folks, not necessary in the quote above) it did remind of this, which I've always thought was funny:

That is pretty much what I had in mind. I recently heard that Aaron Hotchner's team has been looking for Mr Skywalker for a while, now.


(It is also why I didn't bring up the critics of Asimov's Foundation who argued the bad guys had won at the end of second foundation. Sometimes you need to take stories within their own context rather than the reader's.)

[plib]

Originally Posted by ApK

While I don't agree with the derisive politicizing of this sort of thing (by some folks, not necessary in the quote above) it did remind of this, which I've always thought was funny:

If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined!

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by plib

If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined!

I've always thought young Skywalker had a fairly decent sensk o' humor.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

other than a handful of established names keeping the faith, much of what passes for 'science fiction' on store shelves isn't much more than fan fiction inspired by the Halo video games.

I think that it's the other way around: video games are inspired by SF.

I think that the problem is about what is supposed to happen. Normally you can play a game until you win. You can try it again and again and eventually it's all going to be alright in the end. But there are some games where if you play in campaign mode there are missions that you can't win and you find out that you have to lose for the story to move forward.

So you get the optimistic: if you work hard enough and/or if you are good enough you will win, and the pessimistic: you are going to lose anyway.

Originally Posted by benburrell

I have to say, I loved Hamiton's view of the future. I think the point of the article was spot on - you need a hopeful outlook on the future, just to keep going. You need a commonly accepted road map of the future, and it has to be something that people want to build towards. If all you see is darkness ahead, what the point.

Snowcrash on the other hand, was excellent in the ways Blood Merrian. Its a voice of warning, showing you what you definitely do not want. I wouldn't want my kids growing up in the world of Snowcrash. And the point seemed to be, if we as a society keep doing this and this, then logically it will lead to a future america that looks like this. I mean, we already have a floating island of trash in the pacific. So Stephenson isn't extrapolating that far.

We are making mistakes in out society, and we are going to continue making mistakes. SF has been warning about things like climate change and how ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. Some go for the optimistic idea that when we will hit rock bottom we will figure the way out of it because we are superior beings capable of great things. Because of this people think that it isn't really a problem. And you can only look for solutions if you think that there is a problem.

[morriss003]

I completely agree with this and that's why my sf books are deliberately plotted to be fun and uplifting. Some people take issue with my books because of this, but I don't care. Robert Heinlein sometimes had dystopian worlds but his characters always looked to a positive future.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by morriss003

I completely agree with this and that's why my sf books are deliberately plotted to be fun and uplifting. Some people take issue with my books because of this, but I don't care. Robert Heinlein sometimes had dystopian worlds but his characters always looked to a positive future.

Sounds like I need to to add you to my reading list. Where should I start?