Kindle Privacy - Page 2

readingaloud · 11-22-2007, 01:38 PM

I did spend some time to confirm that the kind of scanning I do is legal in Switzerland before I started. I agree with Harry that it's exceedingly unlikely that I'd be called to account, but I'm fussy that way.

Slayda's point is well taken. If, in fact, I did actually entertain any hope of being appointed to the federal bench, I not only wouldn't admit to scanning books, but I wouldn't be participating in this forum at all, or at least I wouldn't be expressing any opinions on matters of public policy.

And this, I think, shows the problem. People who are, or someday want to be, candidates for a high-profile public office should probably steer clear of contributing to internet fora all together--there's just too much risk that something they write will be taken out of context and used against them down the road. I think this is too bad--I don't know how many future federal judges there are reading this, but I'd like to think that they're smart and interesting people, and that the rest of us are poorer for the fact that they don't share their thoughts.

What Amazon is doing, though, has the potential to impoverish our public life even more. If all those future federal judges stop reading controversial books because they're afraid that it might look bad later in life ... Well, they're going to be worse judges.

And it's not just the future judges who need to worry. "Homeland Security" would, I suspect, deny you a visa to visit the U.S. if they know you're reading the wrong kind of literature. You might not get a job as a teacher in a public school if certain members of the school board learn that you read books with bad ideas in them--you might corrupt little children. And you won't get elected to that school board if certain people know that you read the same kind of books.

Electronic books are wonderful because they make it easier to read. But if they also make you more fearful about your reading, that benefit is purchased at a dreadful cost. And I think that, in its own self interest, Amazon should consider taking some steps to reduce that fear.

--Readingaloud

slayda · 11-22-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igorsk

Um, how is scanning books that you own for personal use a copyright violation?

Ask the lawyers, I'm just an engineer. But if you can't change format on an ebook, I would think that scanning a pbook is changing format & therefore unacceptable.

However that is not the point in politics. There it is all how their opponent spins things.

tompe · 11-22-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayda

Ask the lawyers, I'm just an engineer. But if you can't change format on an ebook, I would think that scanning a pbook is changing format & therefore unacceptable.

In Sweden it is alllowed to scan a book and use it and you can give the scan to friends in the same way as you can copy a CD to tape and give to a friend. The reason there is a problem with books with DRM I thought was because the Digital Millenium Copyright Act that might prevent you from breaking the DRM.

Alexander Turcic · 11-22-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igorsk

Okay, maybe so. But readingaloud is from Switzerland and slayda is from USA, so it should be legal for both of them.

Yup, and believe it or not, in Switzerland in general: downloads of copyright protected works from the Internet for personal use are legal, without restriction. You could download music, e-books, videos, and remain within the law. Please don't ask me if I think this law is just, but that's the status quo.

You can read more about it here and here (PDF, German).

nekokami · 11-22-2007, 07:41 PM

Librarians in the US have started deliberately purging records of patron loans on a frequent basis so they can't be subpoenaed for those records. I applaud them, but if I was really concerned about people knowing what I read, I think I wouldn't want to rely on this.

I'm not planning on running for public office (or attempting to be appointed to the Federal bench), but if I were, I guess I'd have to make a "freedom of speech" kind of issue out of any spin my opponents might try to put on my reading habits. But then again, part of the reason I don't plan to run for office is that I don't feel like having to defend the details of my private life. There's nothing that interesting in my private life, mind you, but I'm sure someone who wanted to could find something to spin.

Meanwhile, the FBI already has my fingerprints, because we adopted two children internationally, and I'm probably already on a watch list due to my affiliation with the Quakers and the AFSC (American Friends Service Committee-- that awful subversive organization!) Last time I traveled by air, I got searched both ways. Maybe that was just due to the last-minute changes in flights due to cancellations, maybe not. They don't tell you why they choose to search you.

None of this makes me less concerned about the lack of privacy on the Kindle -- I'm significantly less interested in having one with the situation as it's been described. But I'm not kidding myself that my life is especially private as things stand already.

Switzerland is looking better and better....

montsnmags · 11-28-2007, 08:25 PM

This article on Techdirt, and its associated links, might be of interest to the person who initially raised privacy concerns and others also interested in the topic:

http://techdirt.com/articles/20071128/160658.shtml
"Feds Rejected In Attempt To Get Access To Customer Records At Amazon"

Cheers,
Marc

azog · 11-28-2007, 08:29 PM

Why all this concern? As far as I can tell, you can use the Kindle completely offline. Just turn off the wireless. You can by books via the website in the "traditional manner", download them to your PC, hook up the USB cable, and copy books. Seems like the only time you actually need to have the wireless on is during the initial setup, where everything is personalized automatically. And at that early point, there's nothing to really worry about.

readingaloud · 11-30-2007, 10:09 AM

I do take some comfort from learning that Amazon has sometimes acted to protect customer privacy when they get subpoenas. I wish, however, that the would make that policy explicit, and stronger. How about adding something like this to their privacy policy:

Amazon will not disclose information relating to the titles or content of the items purchased by our customers, or relating to their reading, listening, or viewing habits, except as required by a lawful order from a court of competent jurisdiction. Amazon also undertakes to challenge any such order to the extent that we think there is reasonable doubt as to the lawfulness of the order. In addition, if served with a subpoena or other request for such information, Amazon will, to the extent permitted by law, promptly inform the customer involved.

nekokami · 11-30-2007, 10:26 AM

Since they retain the right to change the privacy policy any time they like, I don't think this is enough. They need to have a contract with users that allows users some recourse (e.g. a partial refund or something) if they change the policy to one the users don't like.

Penforhire · 11-30-2007, 11:51 AM

I think this a valid concern. Sure you can turn off the Whispernet access but not if you want to wirelessly download books, news, or blogs.

I'm being data-mined enough as it is.

All you guys with cracked-DRM e-books on your Kindle have to watch your country's laws carefully. The book publisher equivalent of the RIAA could one day use your Kindle's contents against you!

Gilbamesh · 04-09-2012, 09:18 AM

Sorry about unearthing an apparently long since retired thread, but hope is hard to die.

A book addict since over half-a-century, it still irritates me when someone tries to peek over my shoulder while I'm reading: the relationship between the book and myself is of a very private nature.

Why? Hell if I know, it probably sinks its roots in my remote childhood when my parents used to verify that I only read 'approved' material, anything else being forbidden, excommunicated and punished accordingly as a matter of principle.

Be what it be, I've recently become the happy (just a figure of speech) owner of a brand new Kindle and now I must either make sure that Amazon don't peek over my shoulder, or that the new gadget gets buried as deep as possible in the garden.

Quite obviously I've been very careful not to activate its wireless connection, not to mention creating an Amazon account; but that's just a software option that can be circumvented in 1001 fancy ways - think e.g. of a trojan and of what it can turn on in your computer without you even suspecting it.

My question: where can I look for a reasonable certainty that the confounded thing won't sneakily call home and blab about my private business right under my nose?

The one who comes up with a good suggestion wins an excellent Bavarian beer :-)

WT Sharpe · 04-09-2012, 11:52 AM

As long as you keep the 3G and wifi turned off, you should be safe. Amazon does collect a mountain of information on its users, but it's all, as far as I can tell, in order to better tailor their sales pitches to each particular customer. Since just about every vendor does the same, I don't worry too much about them. I can't promise you that someone working for any given vendor won't misuse any personal information that they come across, but the chances are so slim, I believe, that it's not worth laying awake nights thinking about.

My Kindle wireless is always connected.

HarryT · 04-09-2012, 11:58 AM

The data traffic between the Kindle and Amazon's servers has been endlessly analysed. The Kindle does NOT send to Amazon any information about what you have on your Kindle, or what you are currently reading.

If this really concerns you, there are basically two alternatives:

1. Get a reading device with no internet connectivity.

2. The old standby:

ProfCrash · 04-09-2012, 03:31 PM

I would turn your Kindle on once to register it. This activates Collections and some other cool features. After that, turn it off the WIFi and never reactivate it. That way no data is sent back to Amazon.

You will have to sideload all of your books. You will need to learn what sites sell DRM Free Mobi books so you can read them on your Kindle. You may want to learn how to remove DRM so that you can buy e-books from stores with DRM (like Amazon) and then side load them to your Kindle.

Overall, life is easier if you are willing to use the WiFi and buy books from Amazon. It is amazingly convienent being able to download books from Amazon or your Archive in a matter of seconds. Yes, Amazon will have a record of your purchases, just like any store that you buy from these days.

I have yet to hear of anyone being arrested because they had inappropriate material on their Kindle (or any e-reader) or because they had downloaded a bunch of strange books that caused the government of any country to go nuts.

Do what you are comfortable doing but I would say use the WiFi and enjoy your device to its fullest.

Gilbamesh · 04-13-2012, 03:03 AM

Thanks everybody!

Yes, perhaps I'm a little paranoid about privacy - yet I come from a remote past when even opening a letter addressed to someone else was considered a criminal action, thus cannot help feeling uncomfortable with Google reading my E-mails, the police monitoring my IP address, eBay keeping track of my purchases, and so on.

Because of that I think I'll keep the WiFi carefully shut down in spite of your kind reassuring words. I've downloaded and installed a nice, free, open-source calibre that seems to be able to replace Amazon's website in almost all positive respects (creating collections, tiding up books, uploading texts etc.), but all within one's computer, net cable unplugged

As far as lightning-fast book purchasing is concerned: it takes me at least a week to read and appreciate a good book without cutting corners, thus getting it in a matter of seconds or of quarters-of-an-hour doesn't really make a difference

About that beer, it's yours. When you plan to be near Munich just give me a ring

04-09-2012, 09:18 AM	#26
Gilbamesh Junior Member Posts: 2 Karma: 10 Join Date: Apr 2012 Device: kindle	How do I gag the bloody thing ??? Sorry about unearthing an apparently long since retired thread, but hope is hard to die. A book addict since over half-a-century, it still irritates me when someone tries to peek over my shoulder while I'm reading: the relationship between the book and myself is of a very private nature. Why? Hell if I know, it probably sinks its roots in my remote childhood when my parents used to verify that I only read 'approved' material, anything else being forbidden, excommunicated and punished accordingly as a matter of principle. Be what it be, I've recently become the happy (just a figure of speech) owner of a brand new Kindle and now I must either make sure that Amazon don't peek over my shoulder, or that the new gadget gets buried as deep as possible in the garden. Quite obviously I've been very careful not to activate its wireless connection, not to mention creating an Amazon account; but that's just a software option that can be circumvented in 1001 fancy ways - think e.g. of a trojan and of what it can turn on in your computer without you even suspecting it. My question: where can I look for a reasonable certainty that the confounded thing won't sneakily call home and blab about my private business right under my nose? The one who comes up with a good suggestion wins an excellent Bavarian beer :-) Last edited by Gilbamesh; 04-13-2012 at 03:05 AM.

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11-22-2007, 01:38 PM	#16
readingaloud Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 55 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Switzerland Device: iRex iLiad; Sony Reader; Amazon Kindle	I did spend some time to confirm that the kind of scanning I do is legal in Switzerland before I started. I agree with Harry that it's exceedingly unlikely that I'd be called to account, but I'm fussy that way. Slayda's point is well taken. If, in fact, I did actually entertain any hope of being appointed to the federal bench, I not only wouldn't admit to scanning books, but I wouldn't be participating in this forum at all, or at least I wouldn't be expressing any opinions on matters of public policy. And this, I think, shows the problem. People who are, or someday want to be, candidates for a high-profile public office should probably steer clear of contributing to internet fora all together--there's just too much risk that something they write will be taken out of context and used against them down the road. I think this is too bad--I don't know how many future federal judges there are reading this, but I'd like to think that they're smart and interesting people, and that the rest of us are poorer for the fact that they don't share their thoughts. What Amazon is doing, though, has the potential to impoverish our public life even more. If all those future federal judges stop reading controversial books because they're afraid that it might look bad later in life ... Well, they're going to be worse judges. And it's not just the future judges who need to worry. "Homeland Security" would, I suspect, deny you a visa to visit the U.S. if they know you're reading the wrong kind of literature. You might not get a job as a teacher in a public school if certain members of the school board learn that you read books with bad ideas in them--you might corrupt little children. And you won't get elected to that school board if certain people know that you read the same kind of books. Electronic books are wonderful because they make it easier to read. But if they also make you more fearful about your reading, that benefit is purchased at a dreadful cost. And I think that, in its own self interest, Amazon should consider taking some steps to reduce that fear. --Readingaloud

11-22-2007, 07:41 PM	#20
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Librarians in the US have started deliberately purging records of patron loans on a frequent basis so they can't be subpoenaed for those records. I applaud them, but if I was really concerned about people knowing what I read, I think I wouldn't want to rely on this. I'm not planning on running for public office (or attempting to be appointed to the Federal bench), but if I were, I guess I'd have to make a "freedom of speech" kind of issue out of any spin my opponents might try to put on my reading habits. But then again, part of the reason I don't plan to run for office is that I don't feel like having to defend the details of my private life. There's nothing that interesting in my private life, mind you, but I'm sure someone who wanted to could find something to spin. Meanwhile, the FBI already has my fingerprints, because we adopted two children internationally, and I'm probably already on a watch list due to my affiliation with the Quakers and the AFSC (American Friends Service Committee-- that awful subversive organization!) Last time I traveled by air, I got searched both ways. Maybe that was just due to the last-minute changes in flights due to cancellations, maybe not. They don't tell you why they choose to search you. None of this makes me less concerned about the lack of privacy on the Kindle -- I'm significantly less interested in having one with the situation as it's been described. But I'm not kidding myself that my life is especially private as things stand already. Switzerland is looking better and better....

11-28-2007, 08:25 PM	#21
montsnmags Grand Sorcerer Posts: 10,155 Karma: 4632658 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: none	This article on Techdirt, and its associated links, might be of interest to the person who initially raised privacy concerns and others also interested in the topic: http://techdirt.com/articles/20071128/160658.shtml "Feds Rejected In Attempt To Get Access To Customer Records At Amazon" Cheers, Marc

11-28-2007, 08:29 PM	#22
azog Enthusiast Posts: 49 Karma: 33 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: Cybook Gen3, Kindle	Why all this concern? As far as I can tell, you can use the Kindle completely offline. Just turn off the wireless. You can by books via the website in the "traditional manner", download them to your PC, hook up the USB cable, and copy books. Seems like the only time you actually need to have the wireless on is during the initial setup, where everything is personalized automatically. And at that early point, there's nothing to really worry about.

11-30-2007, 10:09 AM	#23
readingaloud Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 55 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Switzerland Device: iRex iLiad; Sony Reader; Amazon Kindle	I do take some comfort from learning that Amazon has sometimes acted to protect customer privacy when they get subpoenas. I wish, however, that the would make that policy explicit, and stronger. How about adding something like this to their privacy policy: Amazon will not disclose information relating to the titles or content of the items purchased by our customers, or relating to their reading, listening, or viewing habits, except as required by a lawful order from a court of competent jurisdiction. Amazon also undertakes to challenge any such order to the extent that we think there is reasonable doubt as to the lawfulness of the order. In addition, if served with a subpoena or other request for such information, Amazon will, to the extent permitted by law, promptly inform the customer involved.

11-30-2007, 10:26 AM	#24
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Since they retain the right to change the privacy policy any time they like, I don't think this is enough. They need to have a contract with users that allows users some recourse (e.g. a partial refund or something) if they change the policy to one the users don't like.

11-30-2007, 11:51 AM	#25
Penforhire Wizard Posts: 2,230 Karma: 7145404 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+	I think this a valid concern. Sure you can turn off the Whispernet access but not if you want to wirelessly download books, news, or blogs. I'm being data-mined enough as it is. All you guys with cracked-DRM e-books on your Kindle have to watch your country's laws carefully. The book publisher equivalent of the RIAA could one day use your Kindle's contents against you!

04-09-2012, 11:52 AM	#27
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,073 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	As long as you keep the 3G and wifi turned off, you should be safe. Amazon does collect a mountain of information on its users, but it's all, as far as I can tell, in order to better tailor their sales pitches to each particular customer. Since just about every vendor does the same, I don't worry too much about them. I can't promise you that someone working for any given vendor won't misuse any personal information that they come across, but the chances are so slim, I believe, that it's not worth laying awake nights thinking about. My Kindle wireless is always connected.

04-09-2012, 11:58 AM	#28
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	The data traffic between the Kindle and Amazon's servers has been endlessly analysed. The Kindle does NOT send to Amazon any information about what you have on your Kindle, or what you are currently reading. If this really concerns you, there are basically two alternatives: 1. Get a reading device with no internet connectivity. 2. The old standby:

04-09-2012, 03:31 PM	#29
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	I would turn your Kindle on once to register it. This activates Collections and some other cool features. After that, turn it off the WIFi and never reactivate it. That way no data is sent back to Amazon. You will have to sideload all of your books. You will need to learn what sites sell DRM Free Mobi books so you can read them on your Kindle. You may want to learn how to remove DRM so that you can buy e-books from stores with DRM (like Amazon) and then side load them to your Kindle. Overall, life is easier if you are willing to use the WiFi and buy books from Amazon. It is amazingly convienent being able to download books from Amazon or your Archive in a matter of seconds. Yes, Amazon will have a record of your purchases, just like any store that you buy from these days. I have yet to hear of anyone being arrested because they had inappropriate material on their Kindle (or any e-reader) or because they had downloaded a bunch of strange books that caused the government of any country to go nuts. Do what you are comfortable doing but I would say use the WiFi and enjoy your device to its fullest.

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04-13-2012, 03:03 AM	#30
Gilbamesh Junior Member Posts: 2 Karma: 10 Join Date: Apr 2012 Device: kindle	Thanks everybody! Yes, perhaps I'm a little paranoid about privacy - yet I come from a remote past when even opening a letter addressed to someone else was considered a criminal action, thus cannot help feeling uncomfortable with Google reading my E-mails, the police monitoring my IP address, eBay keeping track of my purchases, and so on. Because of that I think I'll keep the WiFi carefully shut down in spite of your kind reassuring words. I've downloaded and installed a nice, free, open-source calibre that seems to be able to replace Amazon's website in almost all positive respects (creating collections, tiding up books, uploading texts etc.), but all within one's computer, net cable unplugged As far as lightning-fast book purchasing is concerned: it takes me at least a week to read and appreciate a good book without cutting corners, thus getting it in a matter of seconds or of quarters-of-an-hour doesn't really make a difference About that beer, it's yours. When you plan to be near Munich just give me a ring