Different Previews in 2.94 and 3.29

[kso]

Sometimes I can't see the woods for the trees. I had another go at my kindle problem and lo and behold I can now isolate two distinct groups of devices: Voyage, DX and all other E-Inks/Paperwhites in one group and all the Fires in another -- all according to the Previewers 2.9 and 3.29.1 and my own old Fire.

And then RbnJrg has to barge in and remind me that

box-sizing: border-box;
box-sizing: inherit;

shouldn't be in my CSS (it's an old one in my debug folder which I forgot to update) because "box-sizing" kills "Enhanced Typesetting" (ET) and when I take it out the 3.29.1 Previewer just tells me that it's not a mobi but it is a kf8. No other media query (MQ) works anymore. If I put the box sizing stuff back in, I lose ET and gain MQs.

@RbnJrg: The problem with the images has, as far as I can see, nothing to do with the images but is due to the bug the Voyage suffers from, as Hitch reported. The Code (and images) I'm using works everywhere else, except on the Voyage Preview.

Back to the drawing board - but not today.

Klaus

The two new MQs I added to split the Kindles into two groups:

@media amzn-mobi, amzn-kf8 and not all and (device-aspect-ratio:1/1) {
	/* "anything in here will work on e-inks" see github url above */
	p.einkall2{display:block;}
}
@media amzn-kf8 and screen and (device-aspect-ratio:1/1) {
	/* "anything in here will work on Fires. Seriously." see github url above */
	p.fireall2{display:block;}
}

The working Kindle mobi:

[jhowell]

The issue is not so much specific devices, but the various file formats that different Kindle devices use. The four main ones are MOBI7, KF8/AZW3, KCR/AZK, and KFX. There is different e-book rendering software for each of these formats with minor variations between devices and firmware revisions.

Straying too far out of the mainstream of e-book coding will lead to problems in one or more of these formats, which you won't be aware of unless you test extensively. The end result will be bad reviews and kindle quality notices from Amazon.

----

Added: Media queries are not supported in KFX format (enhanced typesetting). They are evaluated during conversion from the source format and do not carry through to the device that displays the book.

[kso]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Straying too far out of the mainstream of e-book coding will lead to problems in one or more of these formats...

Thanks for that. Can you confirm (or deny) that MOBI7 is what kindle used in medieval times, KF8/AZW3 is the last format used, KCR/AZK the one that introduced the switch from pure Mobi, and KFX is the Wall they're building? That would make sense to me as someone who's relatively new to kindling things.

Yes, I've read somewhere that (paraphrased) "If you're trying to do something fancy on a Kindle, don't". I'm close to agreeing.

And I fully understand that KFX is a one-way format (mostly anyway) and that "Enhanced Typesetting" is probably no more than a justification for switching to it.

What I don't know is: do old devices, like the Voyage or DX, get ET in line with newer ones or are they stuck at whatever capability and bugginess they are at now?

At the moment I'm thinking of getting a used Voyage. Any particular System Revision I should look out for if I want the device to match a large number of its siblings?

thanks

klaus

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by kso

Thanks for that. Can you confirm (or deny) that MOBI7 is what kindle used in medieval times, KF8/AZW3 is the last format used, KCR/AZK the one that introduced the switch from pure Mobi, and KFX is the Wall they're building? That would make sense to me as someone who's relatively new to kindling things.

Yes, I've read somewhere that (paraphrased) "If you're trying to do something fancy on a Kindle, don't". I'm close to agreeing.

And I fully understand that KFX is a one-way format (mostly anyway) and that "Enhanced Typesetting" is probably no more than a justification for switching to it.

What I don't know is: do old devices, like the Voyage or DX, get ET in line with newer ones or are they stuck at whatever capability and bugginess they are at now?

At the moment I'm thinking of getting a used Voyage. Any particular System Revision I should look out for if I want the device to match a large number of its siblings?

thanks

klaus

KF7 isn't that far back--the DX, which was sold fairly recently, in terms of this decade, was still KF7, as was the KKeyboard, and really, so is KCR.

AZK is not a real format. It's a testing/preview format, solely for the iOS devices. It has no purpose other than previewing iOS device appearance. KCR is a reader, not a format, in and of itself. The output files from KC are kpf, which result in KFX final files.

The Voyage is not a KF7 device; it's a KF8, but has that image-display glitch. The DX is a bonafide KF7 device. NO, the older KF7s will never, afaik, have ET or KF8 or anything--I don't believe that they can. Amazon still supports them, unlike Apple and its devices/software, but they can't seem to upgrade them to match their newer brethren. It would be much, much easier on we of the bookmaking brigade if they could.

Honestly, you can do a lot on a Kindle--but the coding that you were trying would be difficult to implement, even in ePUB format. I wouldn't bet actual money, but I'd be surprised if that worked on all the Nooks, for that matter. eBook HTML is not web html; it's a very specific subset, whether it's for ePUB or MOBI. Yes, MOBI has some additional problems, but all in, I'd rather have a retailer that supports what it sells, philosophically, than one that doesn't.

Hitch

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by kso

Thanks for that. Can you confirm (or deny) that MOBI7 is what kindle used in medieval times, KF8/AZW3 is the last format used, KCR/AZK the one that introduced the switch from pure Mobi, and KFX is the Wall they're building? That would make sense to me as someone who's relatively new to kindling things.

All of those formats are still actively in use. The original MOBI (Mobipocket) was based on HTML 3 and a Palm Pilot file format. While the oldest Kindle devices only support that format, it is still supported by even the newest Kindle apps and devices. Some special types of books are only available in that format, including dictionaries and newspapers.

At this point only KFX format is receiving enhancements and bug fixes. The older formats are all essentially frozen.

Originally Posted by kso

And I fully understand that KFX is a one-way format (mostly anyway) and that "Enhanced Typesetting" is probably no more than a justification for switching to it.

I believe that KFX is the result of a desire to have a proprietary e-book format that is totally under their own control.

Originally Posted by kso

What I don't know is: do old devices, like the Voyage or DX, get ET in line with newer ones or are they stuck at whatever capability and bugginess they are at now?

The Paperwhite 2 (6th generation) introduced in 2013 and all newer models are still receiving updates and support the latest features and formats, at least as much as their hardware allows. None of the models older than that have been updated in many years.

Kindle books can also be read using apps on all of the major platforms and those are kept updated fairly regularly.

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by kso

@RbnJrg: The problem with the images has, as far as I can see, nothing to do with the images but is due to the bug the Voyage suffers from, as Hitch reported. The Code (and images) I'm using works everywhere else, except on the Voyage Preview.

No. I knew you should be doing something wrong I attach an .epub with the correct code. Open it with Kindle Previewer 2.94 and 3.29; in all devices you'll see the things correctly, even in Kindle Voyage preview. And also you have "enhanced typesetting" in Previewer 3.29. Of course, I'm using pure css so you'll need to write code for K7. But regarding all other formats, your issues are solved (at least, that is what I think )



Regards
Rubén

EDIT: Of course, I used a background color and borders; you can remove that.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

No. I knew you should be doing something wrong I attach an .epub with the correct code. Open it with Kindle Previewer 2.94 and 3.29; in all devices you'll see the things correctly, even in Kindle Voyage preview. And also you have "enhanced typesetting" in Previewer 3.29. Of course, I'm using pure css so you'll need to write code for K7. But regarding all other formats, your issues are solved (at least, that is what I think )

Attachment 170279 Attachment 170280

Regards
Rubén

EDIT: Of course, I used a background color and borders; you can remove that.

Rubén, love:

and what question am I going to ask?

And before anyone thinks I'm being pedantic for the sake of pedancy, as KFX does NOT support media queries--you see why I'm asking. oui?

Hitch

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Rubén, love:

and what question am I going to ask?

And before anyone thinks I'm being pedantic for the sake of pedancy, as KFX does NOT support media queries--you see why I'm asking. oui?

Hitch

Hi Hitch;

In that case the OP won"t be able to get all. He will have to go for having "enhanced typesettings" or for having the things fixed for K7. Tables are not well handled in KFX, so a general solution won't be possible. My previous approximation works for .kf8/.azw3 (Kindle Voyage included) and .KFX. Of course, it doesn't work in .kf7; images are displayed one after the other but they don't look so bad. Maybe it can be something acceptable for the OP.

EDIT: there is a general solution: to combine the two images in just one with Gimp or any other program. That will work for any device. No tables, no floating elements, no "fancy code" just a image inserted

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Media queries are not supported in KFX format (enhanced typesetting). They are evaluated during conversion from the source format and do not carry through to the device that displays the book.

I want to clarify the statement I made earlier. Media queries are stripped out during conversion to KFX so that you cannot have the content or styling of a KFX book vary based on the screen resolution, for example.

However, some specific media queries are evaluated when KFX format is created. "@media amzn-mobi" CSS will be ignored and "@media amzn-kf8" CSS will be processed. (Note that in this case KF8 also includes KFX.)

The is also a secret undocumented "@media amzn-et" that is processed only for KFX (enhanced typesetting) but not KF8 or MOBI.

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I want to clarify the statement I made earlier. Media queries are stripped out during conversion to KFX so that you cannot have the content or styling of a KFX book vary based on the screen resolution, for example.

However, some specific media queries are evaluated when KFX format is created. "@media amzn-mobi" CSS will be ignored and "@media amzn-kf8" CSS will be processed. (Note that in this case KF8 also includes KFX.)

The is also a secret undocumented "@media amzn-et" that is processed only for KFX (enhanced typesetting) but not KF8 or MOBI.

Well, in that case the OP won't have troubles. He doesn't need MQ based on screen resolutions; with "@media amzn-mobi" and "@media amzn-kf8" will have enough to write the code to handle the things in KF7.

[kso]

How does one get egg off ones' face?

Seriously, all I forgot, and I've done this before, was to include

display: table;

for the outermost div, the display:table-row and display:table-cell divs are not much use without. As soon as I saw Rubén's code, I felt my face going red.

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

No. I knew you should be doing something wrong I attach an .epub with the correct code. ...

Regards
Rubén

Thank you so very much, all of you, that just made my day^h^h^hweek.

klaus

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by kso

Seriously, all I forgot, and I've done this before, was to include

display: table;

for the outermost div, the display:table-row and display:table-cell divs are not much use without. As soon as I saw Rubén's code, I felt my face going red.

We're humans Klaus, all of us make mistakes

Thank you so very much, all of you, that just made my day^h^h^hweek.

Great, but don't forget you still need to write some code for the KF7 format

[kso]

Hi Rubén

I found the time today to change my design draft code so the outer containers now are set to

display:table

Still didn't work on the Voyage until I noticed you have an additional DIV in each table cell to contain the image and caption.

As this DIV isn't needed for any other device or preview (both in 2.9 and 3.29.1) or any other target (Web, EPUB) I was wondering what gave you the idea to add this. Not sure I would have ever tried this as it works without the additional DIV everywhere else AFAIK.

Still, as the Voyage problem has been bugging me for some time I'm pleased as punch now. Thanks again.

As to the DX or any other KF7 devices: I'm not sure it's doable if they have different screen sizes (need to look into that), as you'd have to specify width and height in PX in the HTML directly. As it stands now, each image covers 100% of the page width if it's not an amzn-kf8 device.


klaus

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by kso

Hi Rubén

I found the time today to change my design draft code so the outer containers now are set to

display:table

Still didn't work on the Voyage until I noticed you have an additional DIV in each table cell to contain the image and caption.

As this DIV isn't needed for any other device or preview (both in 2.9 and 3.29.1) or any other target (Web, EPUB) I was wondering what gave you the idea to add this. Not sure I would have ever tried this as it works without the additional DIV everywhere else AFAIK.

Without that "<div>", the code doesn't work for Kindle Voyage. In KV the images fill the 100% of the screen width, and it should fill the 100% of the container width. So the width of the cells gives the width to the divs, and the width of the divs gives the width for images

As to the DX or any other KF7 devices: I'm not sure it's doable if they have different screen sizes (need to look into that), as you'd have to specify width and height in PX in the HTML directly.

Yes, you won't be able to get a perfect view for DX and others KF7 devices. You'll have to chosse to do things for DX or for Kindle 2. I would write the code for DX.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

Without that "<div>", the code doesn't work for Kindle Voyage. In KV the images fill the 100% of the screen width, and it should fill the 100% of the container width. So the width of the cells gives the width to the divs, and the width of the divs gives the width for images

Yup, just like the original code to control image sizes in iBooks, remember, Ruben? :-)

Yes, you won't be able to get a perfect view for DX and others KF7 devices. You'll have to chosse to do things for DX or for Kindle 2. I would write the code for DX.

Mmmmm...the DX is the largest by far, of the KF7's. While I understand your temptation, I would look to the K2/KKeyboard for a best view of the general appearance on KF7 devices. FWIW.

Hitch