Eye strain worse with frontlight

[Faeryink]

Hello,

I bought an Onyx Nova Pro with a front light feature, and I was intending to use it for some outdoor sketching and a companion ereader for my large Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro (4 GB RAM version). I spent 24 hours with the Nova and my eyes hurt as they do when I am drawing with an IPad. I have been using similar ambient light conditions, and I am sad that it still hurts. Obviously, I have gone back to my beloved Boox Max 2 Pro.

I tried using the Nova Pro with the light turned off and just use the same light source I have for the Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro. Doesnt work, I have the same issue with Likebook Mars which I have owned for over 3 months.

So people who have light sensitivity and suffer from eyestrains please do consider the non-lit ereaders first. I am worried that almost everyone is demanding Frontlight in the devices and I really don't think from my experience so far that simply turning off the light works. The surface texture on my Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro with the official matt screen protector interacts with the incident light source than on the frontlit readers.

I am worried that I might not have any options left in the next 5 years, when most e-ink reader companies will be forced to switch to Frontlit screens with popular demand. For people who keep telling me that simply turn the frontlight off, and I will say sorry it doesnt work. So this for me is a worrying prospect.

[Question Mark]

Strange that turning off the light still causes you eyestrain. I wouldn't have expected that. What about trying a matte screen protector over the screen?

Although it would be yet another layer to potentially obscure the text, it might diffuse the reflected light which seems to be causing the problem.

[E_inkFuture]

I have dry eye syndrome and that’s the reason I switched to these devices, also own a Note Pro. Can’t say I’ve yet experienced discomfort with the light on or off, but I can get eyestrain even looking at regular paper for long stretches. Of course the common denominator is blink rate, if your holding focus and not blinking (properly) enough it will happen. Granted I do think adding a light to anything increases the chance of strain, whether it be front or backlit.

Rather than the screen surface I wonder if it isn’t just the size, the nova and mars are a far smaller area to focus on than the max.

[bsnick]

Out of curiousity, have you tried the Nova Pro with a matte screen protector like your Max 2 Pro has? I'm curious about whether that would improve your situation.

If the extra layer they put it for the light is the culprit I suppose the above idea wouldn't work.

[Faeryink]

@E-inkFuture:
Thanks for sharing your experience and the advice on blinking to prevent dry eyes. I feel pressure behind my right eye build up and get severe headaches when using LCD screens. I take 3-5 minute break every 30 minutes (even on e-ink and paper). Perhaps I will set my timer to 20 minutes and see if that makes a difference. I get more anxious when working on LCD screens than with e-ink or paper. I can work on paper for hours, as I draw and paint a lot and read printed material without any issues. I think you may have a point about the e-ink screen size, I had the same issue (being honest much worse) with Kindle Paperwhite many years ago. Interestingly, I was fine with my old Yotaphone 2 (even smaller screen but unlit).
I spent a few hours again with the Nova's front light turned off after a break and I can manage maybe an hour or two. I realised I had to turn both cold and warm lights off (the cold light was on 1, and I thought both were turned off). I am reluctant to put a matt screen on my Nova Pro, as I really like the surface to draw/sketch/write on. On my Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro I have a matt screen protector (official one from Onyx) and it is gorgeous to write and draw on, but the problem is that the stylus nib wears down too fast. I have to change the nib every 2-3 weeks so its getting a bit expensive (I get a pack of 5 nibs for about 9 euros on Amazon). I think with the Nova Pro the one advantage is that the nibs won't need changing as often as I need to with the Max Boox Pro 2. But I will try the screen protector in the future. Thanks for your suggestions.

@Question Mark & @bsnick
I realised that I had not fully turned off the cold light it was on setting 1, turning it off made a big difference. I have decided to use it as a notepad and field sketchbook (outdoors). I loved sketching and drawing on it. I have to change the nib on my Wacom stylus for Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro every 2-3 weeks, so its a bit pricey to maintain. I feel that the pen tips for the Nova would last longer. It is wonderful to draw/sketch on, somehow the pressure sensitivity is handled better on the Nova (just my experience with Artrage and Sketchbook). I have some spare matt screen protectors for my Onyx Boox which I could cut to fit on Nova screen to see if it would make a difference, but I will ideally just use it without it for keeping the nibs longer. I am a fairly small person and I don't apply much pressure on the stylus but I think the matt texture on my Onyx Boox Max wears down the nibs faster. Thanks for your advice on the matt screen protector, I shall bear that in mind for the future.

[plusz]

Originally Posted by Faeryink

@E-inkFuture:
I spent a few hours again with the Nova's front light turned off after a break and I can manage maybe an hour or two. I realised I had to turn both cold and warm lights off (the cold light was on 1, and I thought both were turned off).

I have not seen yet an e-ink comfortable to read with the front light turned on. The front light is OKeyish but as a matter of fact I find an OLED screen less tiring than e-ink with front light.

Nonetheless I'd like to give you a hint to try the front light once again but set to the maximum. Most laptop / tablet screens exhibit the same problem this days - backlight PWM. The backlit does not dim but is throttled with a high frequency. Instead of being ON all the time, the light goes ON and OFF within a short time. The higher the pulse frequency the better. For example in 10 ms time, one screen may emit light for 3 ms then stay off for 7 ms, whereas other screen may emit light for 1 ms, stay off for 2 ms, emit light for 1 ms, off 2 ms, on 1 ms, off 2 ms. In the end both emit the same average amount of light but the second could be perceived better for the eyes. Back in the days, in the CRT TVs a tiny very bright dot ( 10th times more bright than the average screen brightness) was traversing the screen line by line to make the picture. The speed of the dot was hight enough so you couldn't tell with a naked eye that there's one dot travelling through the screen but still when the speed of the dot doubled going from 60Hz to 120Hz in CRT computer screens most people immediately noticed better eye comfort. These days most laptops do severe backlit PWM when the brightness is less than 70%.

[Faeryink]

thanks for your advice regarding turning up the brightness, its a lot better. I agree that frontlit e-book readers are not comfortable. I am using Nova as my support device so I am not going to stare at it as much. I tried laptops that allegedly had no PWM according to external sources, but it didn't work out for me.

I hope Onyx will offer both non-lit and frontlit devices to satisfy everyone's needs. I know that one can fully turn off the light, but I really like the slight softness on the Max 2 Pro's screen, it feels closer to writing on paper than on these laminated glassy surfaces. I tried putting a matt screen protector on my Likebook mars (light turned off) and used my external light source. But its not as nice as Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro. So I am a bit reluctant to try it on my brand new Nova reader.

Yesterday, I contacted Onyx regarding their thoughts on whether there will be devices like Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro in the future (lets say about 3-4 years down the line when I would consider upgrading). I got a reply back saying they have noted my concerns, but what they are sort of saying I think that the future is
FRONTLIT. This is bad news for people like me who have severe light sensitivity due to health issues.

There are research articles which suggest that e-ink readers are best used without any in-built lighting and to use external light sources (ambient reading light). Of course, more research is needed to really work out what is good for the eyes and for our overall long term health. Having a choice would be great, maybe they could offer individual configurations in the future. For now all I can do is letting Onyx Int. know that I want to see options and developments with unlit devices.

I have considered buying another Max 2 Pro, in case they (most manufacturers) stop making these lovely unlit devices (which don't have a glass surface.). Of course, its not a realistic plan as the android version would be way too old, the only option would be to use it in monitor mode.

I hope we can see e-ink readers that will have higher resolution with no built-in lights. Thanks for your insight on the brightness settings!!

Originally Posted by plusz

I have not seen yet an e-ink comfortable to read with the front light turned on. The front light is OKeyish but as a matter of fact I find an OLED screen less tiring than e-ink with front light.

Nonetheless I'd like to give you a hint to try the front light once again but set to the maximum. Most laptop / tablet screens exhibit the same problem this days - backlight PWM. The backlit does not dim but is throttled with a high frequency. Instead of being ON all the time, the light goes ON and OFF within a short time. The higher the pulse frequency the better. For example in 10 ms time, one screen may emit light for 3 ms then stay off for 7 ms, whereas other screen may emit light for 1 ms, stay off for 2 ms, emit light for 1 ms, off 2 ms, on 1 ms, off 2 ms. In the end both emit the same average amount of light but the second could be perceived better for the eyes. Back in the days, in the CRT TVs a tiny very bright dot ( 10th times more bright than the average screen brightness) was traversing the screen line by line to make the picture. The speed of the dot was hight enough so you couldn't tell with a naked eye that there's one dot travelling through the screen but still when the speed of the dot doubled going from 60Hz to 120Hz in CRT computer screens most people immediately noticed better eye comfort. These days most laptops do severe backlit PWM when the brightness is less than 70%.

[plusz]

Originally Posted by Faeryink

I tried laptops that allegedly had no PWM according to external sources, but it didn't work out for me.

This is how I've found out about the PWM issue. I bought the same laptop model as I had at work and I noticed the difference. Somewhat confused I started searching. First I discovered that the laptop should look the same and have the same capabilities but there are several component makers so you never know which maker delivered which components in your unit. It doesn't matter really for most of the things but indeed people are complaining about the keyboard or screen quality. Then I have found that a software can read the exact part number of the LCD in the laptop. Searching for it I have found threads discussing the PWM by unhappy owners. Well, it's quite expensive laptop from a good brand, that's the time we're living in, quality doesn't come with the price by default, my mistake

[Faeryink]

Oh yes the actual LCD panel will make a difference. Yes, that would explain it. But I had a Dell Latitutde Laptop and after researching I found that the manufacturer would either use LG or AOC panels (both were IPS) for the exact same model. People reported PWM flickering with the LG but not with the AOC panel, so I purchased an AOC Panel (IPS) for 80 euros and with the help of my partner we replaced the panel very carefully. It made no difference. So as you say it has to be exactly the same model, so there might be other components that might be contributing to this.

I have so much trouble with the new keyboards on the laptops, they don't have much travel. I prefer the older laptops with nicer keyboards.

Have you tried IRIS on your laptop?
https://iristech.co/how-iris-reduces...licker-medium/

I had a go a few years ago, and it didnt work for me. BUT I made a fundamental mistake running this software, I did not set the brightness at 100% on the laptop. So I think the brightness is then controlled by IRIS software which allegedly reduces the PWM. Worth trying out.
I also wear computer glasses (cheaper alternative to Gunnars) and they help to some extent.
So I will have retry the IRIS software on Macbook Pro (retina 2013) and four other old laptops I own to see if it works. I must say I am intrigued about running this on the Onyx Nova too. I will report back in a few hours or a day.

Originally Posted by plusz

This is how I've found out about the PWM issue. I bought the same laptop model as I had at work and I noticed the difference. Somewhat confused I started searching. First I discovered that the laptop should look the same and have the same capabilities but there are several component makers so you never know which maker delivered which components in your unit. It doesn't matter really for most of the things but indeed people are complaining about the keyboard or screen quality. Then I have found that a software can read the exact part number of the LCD in the laptop. Searching for it I have found threads discussing the PWM by unhappy owners. Well, it's quite expensive laptop from a good brand, that's the time we're living in, quality doesn't come with the price by default, my mistake

[eMole]

I, too have eyestrain problems. All LCD-s hurt, especially with light colors. Real white paper hurts. Old, yellow or gray pages are ok. I use (and love) a non-glare ebook reader, pause at every page at look up at something farther in my room.
And frontlight hurts, I always use ambient light.

[Faeryink]

@plusz
Good result with Macbook Pro Retina, running IRIS eye care software. So when I set the brightness level to 100% on the macbook and then adjust the blue light level and the brightness via the IRIS software panel, there is no flicker. My Macbook was flickering badly before and I could not use it below 30% brightness. It seems good. There is a trial version (7 days free), worth a try I hope.

I still have pressure behind one of my eye, so I think its light sensitivity (heightened due to my allergy to grass/birch/rye pollen). But it does make things a bit better.

Hope you will give it a go, if you haven't already done so in the past. The person maintaining and developing the software is approachable, I remember discussing some problems with the license key. I will try it on NovaPro later. Thanks for the tips on PWM, I can't believe I missed the fundamental part about brightness (despite reading it several times over the years).

[Faeryink]

Yes that's how I react to white paper (bleached, normal printer paper) and I find the grey/off-white background so much easier just like you do. I almost always stain the paper/canvas paper I paint/draw on with tea washes if its very white. Usually I purchase unbleached, environmentally friendly drawing and painting paper. With the reading on white paper its harder for me. Tempting to tea-stain my pdf articles. Luckily they are all in digital format on my Onyx e-readers. I agree that the off-white (greyish newspaper like) background gives a more comfortable experience when reading books or articles. I don't like watching videos on the LCD screen I use my Onyx Boox.

It seem like you have similar light sensitivity issues as I do. With the LCD screens I always use blue light filters (windows, mac, ios settings) and I wear computer glasses which cut blue light. Despite that I get eye strain, and I am better with my unlit Onyx Boox Max 2 pro and printed books. i am handwriting my novel currently on the Onyx devices and I mostly do my artwork in between. I do need the computer/laptops when I am doing data collection and processing (personal scientific studies on art materials). So the monitor mode on Onyx is great for that mostly.

I am now using my large Max 2 Pro for reading and editing documents and Nova Pro for field notes, sketching and using it write on with the stylus. It has been expensive, but I hope I can get on with my work without hurting my eyes. I spend about 10 hours a day on these devices (writing, drawing, watching videos).

Thanks for reminding me about the breaks I need to take. I have a timer setup to help but sometimes I ignore it. How do you set a timer or know when it take a pause? Maybe I will look in the google play store for something that would remind me to take a pause. Thanks once again!!

Originally Posted by eMole

I, too have eyestrain problems. All LCD-s hurt, especially with light colors. Real white paper hurts. Old, yellow or gray pages are ok. I use (and love) a non-glare ebook reader, pause at every page at look up at something farther in my room.
And frontlight hurts, I always use ambient light.

[plusz]

Originally Posted by Faeryink

@plusz
Good result with Macbook Pro Retina, running IRIS eye care software. So when I set the brightness level to 100% on the macbook and then adjust the blue light level and the brightness via the IRIS software panel, there is no flicker. My Macbook was flickering badly before and I could not use it below 30% brightness. It seems good. There is a trial

Ah, interesting that someone made an app for that. I use the same trick as the app does since a long time. It's quite easy on any modern OS to edit and install your custom color calibration profile for each monitor. Nonetheless I don't have issue with light. I use my computers set to full brightness in a well illuminated room and it's very comfortable for me. At some point I used to have kind of a light phobia. I started dimming the light, then using dark color scheme in any software, but yet my eyes were getting tired in a matter of a few hours so every working day was a tiring day no matter what. The progression was happening in a matter of a few years.

My eyes got "cured" quite rapidly by changing my life style. It happened by a coincidence. I just lost my job and used the garden leave period to relax a bit. Since it was summer I spent literally every day outdoors. I noticed a big improvement, not only to my eyes but overall. Going back to work six months later I realized that I had no light issue. I did a deep research about the subject. My initial thought was that perhaps we need more vacation to maintain proper eye health. It's probably still true but I believe that indeed working with printed text the whole day, whether it is on screen or on paper we need a very good light conditions. Many sources state at least 500 lx but ~1000 lx recommended. I bought a lx meter to check. It turned out that typically we hardly have more than 500 lx light indoors whilst outdoors even on a dull day there's more than 1000 lx. However a small desk lamp gives you easily ~1000 lx due to a short distance. Unfortunately I have found it uncomfortable to work with a desk lamp. I much more prefer to work in a room lit with ambient light so at home my work room has now four strong lights standing in every corner (which gives ~ 600 lx ambient light measured on my desk), at work I have two stand lamps, not as comfortable as my home setup but not bad either. The light phobia didn't return so far and I hope it won't ever.

Regarding printed materials, I also hate the premium quality paper due to the light reflection. It's much like glossy computer screen.

[Faeryink]

@plusz
I am glad that your eyes are a lot better and happy to hear that you found a way of coping with screens.
I left academia six years ago due to my health. I am a scientist (Chemist, light scattering and renewable materials) . Research funding is difficult to secure and I found the prospect of teaching stressful. For me even a six year "vacation" hasn't fixed my eyes or allergies/health issues. My partner looks after me (he's a medievalist/historian) and we were travelling a lot around Europe (different archives and libraries).
I miss my research work and I am involved in my own projects now (no monetary value). I am working on my projects, and I study renewable and vegan art materials using diy equipment or things I gathered on ebay.

My light meter informs that my work light is sufficient and I live in a (very) brightly lit apartment. Nevertheless, I will use my light meter to see if there is a way of improving the ambient light further. I wear my computer glasses most of the time to cope with bright lights. I actually have light sensitivity due to my allergies and intolerances.

I get severe eyestrain with LCD screens literally using them after an hour with taking breaks. The flicker on my macbook and thinkpad were noticeable even at 100% brightness (under 40% brightness it was terrible). Iris did cut the flicker out rather well. However, it still hurts. On paper (unbleached) backgrounds, I am fine. I can work for hours just like with Max 2 Pro.

I will certainly keep a closer eye on the ambient light conditions. So far my set up with both Onyx Max 2 Pro and Nova seems ideal. I do miss working with the laptop for speed and lots of features. Strangely, I am more productive on the e-ink readers (get less distracted). I am writing my ficition novels using the stylus and the Notes app, I got more done than on the laptop. So its all keeping me more focused.

I am making a log of light conditions and eye strain, so maybe there will be more clues how to keep my eyes healthy and making it easier to work in the long term. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on investigating the ambient light conditions.

[Onyx Boox]

Thank you for your support to Onyx Boox all the time!

Now the Onyx Boox ereaders on sale all adopt the I2C control mode. The brightness adjustment of the front light depends on the different parameters sent to the light chip through I2C signal, instead of the change of duty ratio.

You are suggested to use the ereaders with E Ink high resolution flexible display such as the Boox Note,Max2 or Max2 Pro, if you are very sensitive to the light.

Boox will continue to provide more eye-friendly products in the future, and make E-ink technology be accessible to everyone.