Amazon removes books from Kindle?

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

...
I think this means that the refund of the charges for the ebook automatically triggered the ebook deletion. This makes sense when the customer requests the refund, but not necessarily when Amazon makes the refund.
...

This is good news, and it is "the right thing to do."

I am glad to see Amazon changing its policy, although my cynical nature ascribes the change to the desire to avert a PR disaster, and/or avoiding the inevitable lawsuit. They can't really just be discovering this "glitch"....

As I said, there are well established venues for copyright holders to redress any damage done to their rights by such sale, that do not involve what may be illegal access and removal of files, from the devices of innocent purchasers.

[Stingo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, Stingo, but I don't follow you. Why would you want Amazon to leave illegal content on your Kindle if they discovered that it had been illegally uploaded? That could leave you personally liable to prosecution for copyright infringement. I know that I would certainly want such material to be automatically removed, both because it the "right" thing to do, and because of the legal implications of not doing so.

Simple. It is not illegal content. It was infringing at the point of sale by Mobi and Amazon because they did not have the right to sell it. However, once you buy it as an innocent purchaser in due course. Your copy is yours. The copyright owner has recourse to recover disgorgement of profits or even statutory damages if the actions by Mobi and Amazon were intentional.

Furthermore, even if you were right that it was "illegal", Amazon is not your dad or cop, it is a vendor. It should not have the right police your Kindle without your permission.

[Andurian]

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

I think it's unrealistic to expect Amazon or any distributor to verify that a publisher has the legal right to publish a book.

Does this principle extend to the people who ran the Pirate Bay?

[carld]

Originally Posted by Andurian

Does this principle extend to the people who ran the Pirate Bay?

Amazon is not generally a distributor of pirated goods, and acts to remove pirated content to the best of its ability, even more-so that some people like. Were either of these true for Pirate Bay?

[megacoupe]

Originally Posted by carld

You still don't have a right to own the book, however you parse words and dance around the topic.

That is where you are mistaken. I don't have the rights to sell or distribute the book, but the PHYSICAL COPY of the book is mine.

Michael Jackson's HIStory album from 1995 had a couple of offensive words on one track, so they went back and censored the words for a new pressing of the album. Did Michael Jackson or Epic or Sony force their customers to return the originals and get the new, censored version of the album? Or, as Amazon did, simply take the albums back and refund the money? No, because they legally could not do so.

If anyone's dancing around the facts here, it's you.

[carld]

Originally Posted by megacoupe

That is where you are mistaken. I don't have the rights to sell or distribute the book, but the PHYSICAL COPY of the book is mine.

Michael Jackson's HIStory album from 1995 had a couple of offensive words on one track, so they went back and censored the words for a new pressing of the album. Did Michael Jackson or Epic or Sony force their customers to return the originals and get the new, censored version of the album? Or, as Amazon did, simply take the albums back and refund the money? No, because they legally could not do so.

If anyone's dancing around the facts here, it's you.

You don't have a PHYSICAL COPY of the book, you have a license to use an electronic copy. And, as people keep insisting here, IP operates under different laws than physical property.

[megacoupe]

Originally Posted by carld

You don't have a PHYSICAL COPY of the book, you have a license to use an electronic copy. And, as people keep insisting here, IP operates under different laws than physical property.

The bits of data that were "1984" on someone's Kindle were physical property, and Amazon had no right to remove them from anywhere but its own servers, according to THEIR OWN POLICY. Quoted from NYT:

Amazon's published terms of service agreement for the Kindle does not appear to give the company the right to delete purchases after they have been made. It says Amazon grants customers the right to keep a "permanent copy of the applicable digital content."

Regardless of your opinion on the law and IP rights, Amazon broke their own terms.

But, taking US law into account:

Under the "right of first sale" in the U.S., people can do whatever they like with a book after purchasing it, including giving it to a friend or reselling it. There is no option for a bookseller to take that book back once it's sold.

There's hardly anything left to say on this subject. Amazon was wrong, admit it and let's move on.

[krischik]

Originally Posted by carld

And, as people keep insisting here, IP operates under different laws than physical property.

Even if you are right - what about the annotations which got deleted as well?

Martin

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by carld

You don't have a PHYSICAL COPY of the book, you have a license to use an electronic copy. And, as people keep insisting here, IP operates under different laws than physical property.

Yeah, it does.

And that's why, after a legitimate sale in which the parties (Amazon and the purchaser) acted in good faith, even if there was a subsequently discovered copyright violation, the copyright holder is not deprived of the "physical" copy.

The injured copyright holders may have a claim against those who infringed on their copyright, or against Amazon.

But, Amazon most likely does not have the right to reach into your Kindle, and remove the file (it may in fact be an offense.) And most likely, Amazon does not want go to court to find out.

And this is why, Amazon is re-evaluating their practices. So, if you personally still want Amazon to be able to delete your files, take your beef with Amazon.

[BuddyBoy]

Originally Posted by carld

You don't have a PHYSICAL COPY of the book, you have a license to use an electronic copy. And, as people keep insisting here, IP operates under different laws than physical property.

Yes, and IP rights restrict your ability to publish, perform, present and disseminate, not to possess.

Unlike stolen goods, IP violations are committed by the publisher or producer of the item, not the purchaser. Especially if the purchaser has lack of intent.

By the way IP rights are the same regardless of the state of the object, ie physical or electronic. Intellectual property refers to the content - the book, the song, the show - regardless of the media in which it is delivered. You can't buy a physical copy of a copyrighted play, for example, then put on a performance without paying royalties.

You can buy an illegally printed book legally.
You cannot buy a stolen book legally though, for example a rare book taken from a collector or a book stolen from B&N being sold on the street. In those cases, a physical theft has occurred, which differs from an copyright infringement.

Clear as mud?

[ebs]

For curious people - here is how Amazon deletes books.
There is a special "todo" server (https://todo-g7g.amazon.com) which is polled by Kindle regulary. It provides a simple webservice that allows Amazon to specify list of actions to perform. Here is a sample list of actions:

• Upload system log (this is done regulary)
• Upload diagnostic info (611)
• Upload a file from /proc tree
• Delete a book
• Download a book (this is how your purchases are pushed)

Sample deletion request is shown below (I crafted it manualy, so real one from Amazon may differ, but this one does work, book key was mangled):

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response>
    <total_count>1</total_count>
    <next_pull_time>20090719 20:00:00</next_pull_time>
    <items>
        <item priority="0" type="EBSP" action="DEL" key="B000XXXX" sequence="0">Book name</item>
    </items>
</response>

I can confirm that annotations are also deleted.
This feature can be trivialy disabled by patching Kindle firmware

[HarryT]

The deletion operation is also used by subscriptions, so be careful if you disable it - you'll remove the automatic "tidy-up" of subscription content as a side-effect.

[ebs]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The deletion operation is also used by subscriptions, so be careful if you disable it - you'll remove the automatic "tidy-up" of subscription content as a side-effect.

Yeah, I've been thinking about it. Most likely they use different type. I think "EBOK" and "EBSP" are books and book samples.
Here is a full list: "NWPR", "EBOK", "EBSP", "NNOW", "FEED", "PSNL", "MESG", "NAMS", "FWUO", "FWUP".
It's simple to disable deletion only for a particular type

[Barcey]

Maybe Amazon saw the MobileRead front page news item about the Chinese clone of the Kindle and wanted to demonstrate to the Chinese government why they only want their population to use REAL Kindles. That Amazon they're so clever.

[dedicated]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, Stingo, but I don't follow you. Why would you want Amazon to leave illegal content on your Kindle if they discovered that it had been illegally uploaded? That could leave you personally liable to prosecution for copyright infringement. I know that I would certainly want such material to be automatically removed, both because it the "right" thing to do, and because of the legal implications of not doing so.

I certainly do not want such material, or any material, to be automatically removed. I would appreciate to be notified that such content is illegal, and be asked to remove it myself. At a minimum, they can warn me that something is going to be deleted, instead of taking the liberty to do what's best for me without my knowing.