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Old 01-02-2017, 08:33 PM   #31
fjtorres
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And yes, I blame automation for this disparity.

Obviously, there are always exceptions, but this is what I'm seeing here in the south of the country. I'm not even out of a job and can't get to switch, for god's sake.
This would be a subject for the lounge so I'll leave it at: different countries have different social contracts and different people manage their lives in different ways. The only certainty is change. Times change, the world changes, people change.

(In the US the big issue of the last decades is a mismatch between available skills and actual needs. There is an enormous shortage in many educated or high-skill non-degree professions and a profusion of others, leading to the contentious label: overqualified.)

Good luck in the new year.

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Old 01-02-2017, 09:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
This would be a subject for the lounge so I'll leave it at: different countries have different social contracts and different people manage their lives in different ways. The only certainty is change. Times change, the world changes, people change.

(In the US the big issue of the last decades is a mismatch between available skills and actual needs. There is an enormous shortage in many educated or high-skill non-degree professions and a profusion of others, leading to the contentious label: overqualified.)

Good luck in the new year.
Add to this: it depends on the region in the US, what skill levels are needed.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:17 PM   #33
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(In the US the big issue of the last decades is a mismatch between available skills and actual needs. There is an enormous shortage in many educated or high-skill non-degree professions and a profusion of others, leading to the contentious label: overqualified.)
I don't know how bad it is over there, but in the Netherlands, it's getting ridiculous. "We can't find the people we need, there is a skill mismatch" is another way of saying "We can't find anyone with 5+ years of work experience with *EXACTLY* the tools/systems we use, and we're not willing to spend some effort to educate new employees."

It's going so far as to reject people with 10 years of software engineering experience because they've programmed in X instead of Y. One of my friends was rejected for a Linux server admin job because he's used to Debian Stable in his former company, and at the other company where he applied, they used Red Hat. Oh, wow. Now he'd have to learn 'yum' instead of 'apt', and some different filenames and locations. Whieee. That'll take an ENTIRE week or so, learning as you go. Nope, can't afford that.

But true enough, this is off-topic.

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Old 01-04-2017, 01:19 AM   #34
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Now, companies want only want bachelors and sometimes even masters for jobs that would have required only MBO level 4 in the past. Many people who only studied up to MBO level 4 work for minimum wage or slightly more.
That's been happening for quite a while. One friend of mine who recently retired worked for a Canadian government department. She was hired out of university with a Bachelor in Microbiology (more years ago than she cares to remember ). Twenty years later, they were hiring post-docs for their entry level positions (AKA test tube/Petri dish scrubbers). A bachelor degree? Probably makes you over-qualified for the "Would you like fries with that?" jobs and under-qualified for anything else.
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Old 01-04-2017, 11:02 AM   #35
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A bachelor degree? Probably makes you over-qualified for the "Would you like fries with that?" jobs and under-qualified for anything else.
Basically, yes. So you have master+ with 5 years of work experience, or no education at all, if you want to get hired. Everything else in between has been automated it seems.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:27 PM   #36
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I think you're confusing "automation" with "stupid hiring practices" (or meaningless degrees too easily achieved) and corporate bureaucracy.

Automation isn't eliminatng any jobs. Unrealistic expectations, and a plethora of qualified candidates is simply causing the bar to be raised (for no good reason other than the fact that those doing the hiring want a candidate's CV to make the decision for them). Just like managers relying on policies to do their managing for them.

Technological Automation is innocent--and completely separate from the corporate world's penchant for adopting stupider and stupider (not to mention more and more) bureaucratic policies designed to eliminate the need for management to actually DO anything of any consequence. Think; "I didn't fire you; you fired yourself. Says so here in section 2 paragraph 4 of The Policy Handbook."

If anything, it's the "automation" of an almighty, self-governing Policy Buffer designed to keep The Company isolated from having to actually manage its human assets that's at fault, here. Social, bureaucratic automation is the problem, not technological automation. The world's going to policy itself to death. All because people want to follow a pre-ordained flowchart to make decisions for them throughout their work day. "Says right here an MBA is required, sir. If it were up to me, your BA and ten-years experience would be enough, but... policy is policy."

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Old 01-04-2017, 12:56 PM   #37
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I think you're confusing "automation" with "stupid hiring practices" (or meaningless degrees too easily achieved) and corporate bureaucracy.
Could be. Some degrees are just playing around, even here in the Netherlands. Computer Science isn't one of them (or at least, wasn't when I obtained it).

Quote:
Automation isn't eliminatng any jobs.
Not true. In January last year, I wrote a piece of software for a machine to (re)automate part of a factory. If that machine hadn't been commissioned, the company would have needed to hire four people. This year, the machine will save them around €100K a year, but in essence, I helped preventing four people from getting a job. A low-end, minimum wage job, but nevertheless.

Quote:
Technological Automation is innocent--and completely separate from the corporate world's penchant for adopting stupider and stupider (not to mention more and more) bureaucratic policies designed to eliminate the need for management to actually DO anything of any consequence. Think; "I didn't fire you; you fired yourself. Says so here in section 2 paragraph 4 of The Policy Handbook."
Oh, would that be the reason why management classes in the Netherlands are filled to the brim; because people know they don't have to do anything after graduating? Makes sense.... I should have gone into management instead of actually choosing a profession.

Quote:
If anything, it's the "automation" of an almighty, self-governing Policy Buffer designed to keep The Company isolated from having to actually manage its human assets that's at fault, here. Social, bureaucratic automation is the problem, not technological automation. The world's going to policy itself to death. All because people want to follow a pre-ordained flowchart to make decisions for them throughout their work day. "Says right here an MBA is required, sir. If it were up to me, your BA and ten-years experience would be enough, but... policy is policy."
I think this may be the biggest problem of all: companies trying to hire people with more and higher education for jobs for which it is not required. It's logical that no one can find 'qualified employees anywhere in the country".

On one of the government sites I found that 40% of working people in the Netherlands has a bachelor or higher... and *STILL* companies can't find qualified people? So all the education has apparently become useless.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:10 PM   #38
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Not true. In January last year, I wrote a piece of software for a machine to (re)automate part of a factory. If that machine hadn't been commissioned, the company would have needed to hire four people. This year, the machine will save them around €100K a year, but in essence, I helped preventing four people from getting a job. A low-end, minimum wage job, but nevertheless.
Generally speaking, technology advances eliminate specific jobs, but at the same time, they create even more jobs than they eliminate because of the potential they open. A conference I went to a few years back quoted a 25% growth. Just think of how many current jobs exist as a direct consequence of the internet. Or computers. Computers eliminated the need for as many calculator grunts, but they exploded the appetite for more advanced reporting and analysis.

Unfortunately for those displaced, the new jobs don't line up with their their skill set, aptitude or interests. And that is definitely an issue.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:57 PM   #39
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Self-driving cars are coming sooner than people think, and I'm looking forward to them. I remember someone insisting we'd never have internet TV, and this was after set top boxed for Netflix existed. I used to be able to drive for 600 miles a day without a problem. Now a 300 mile trip wears me out. A self-driving car isn't going to get tired or distracted. I'd like to be able to enjoy the scenery I'm driving through rather than focus on the road. It really doesn't take that much to be better at humans at things. A forklift is better at lifting things. If I had to weave my own cloth and sew my own clothes, I'd be wearing rags.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:36 PM   #40
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Generally speaking, technology advances eliminate specific jobs, but at the same time, they create even more jobs than they eliminate because of the potential they open. A conference I went to a few years back quoted a 25% growth. Just think of how many current jobs exist as a direct consequence of the internet. Or computers. Computers eliminated the need for as many calculator grunts, but they exploded the appetite for more advanced reporting and analysis.

Unfortunately for those displaced, the new jobs don't line up with their their skill set, aptitude or interests. And that is definitely an issue.
It's often said, indeed.

But still, those four factory workers will never be able to apply for one of those new jobs. If they could, they would have studied.

Even though the Dutch government is of the opinion that "anyone" can study because of loans and/or scholarships, it's just not true. Not everybody has the intelligence to study at bachelor+ level. Formerly, those people had jobs at MBO level 1-4, that paid them a decent salary, like 30% above minimum wage, but now there are no jobs at that level.

As QuantumIguana mentioned the automated car.... where are you going to employ the truck, taxi, and bus drivers who will be out of a job? You can hire anyone who can drive a car/truck/bus, teach them how to park or drive the vehicle in case of an emergency, and you're done. In short, if there are jobs in that space after this automation, salaries will instantly drop to minimum wage as there's nothing to do apart from taking control in an emergency.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:59 PM   #41
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We could have banned cars to protect the buggy whip business, I suppose. Of course then, we'd have a quite different pollution problem on our hands, horse... emissions... werr a major problem. Self-driving cars are going to save many lives and provide increased mobility to many people.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:21 PM   #42
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We could have banned cars to protect the buggy whip business, I suppose. Of course then, we'd have a quite different pollution problem on our hands, horse... emissions... werr a major problem. Self-driving cars are going to save many lives and provide increased mobility to many people.
If a self-driving car has the following two attributes:

- It becomes affordable to me
- If it can drive 100% on its own, all the time, no expections... as I have poor vision, and are not allowed to drive any vehicle

then it will be a godsend to me. My mobility would be increased tenfold or so.

Still, I think the fact remains that lower end jobs have been disappearing for a long time, to be replaced by higher end jobs for which people are either not educated, or companies are asking for education levels that are beyond reasonable for such a job.
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:00 PM   #43
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If a self-driving car has the following two attributes:

- It becomes affordable to me
- If it can drive 100% on its own, all the time, no expections... as I have poor vision, and are not allowed to drive any vehicle

then it will be a godsend to me. My mobility would be increased tenfold or so.
My mother has macular degeneration. A self driving car would give her her independence back.
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:16 PM   #44
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:26 PM   #45
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It's often said, indeed.

But still, those four factory workers will never be able to apply for one of those new jobs. If they could, they would have studied.

Even though the Dutch government is of the opinion that "anyone" can study because of loans and/or scholarships, it's just not true. Not everybody has the intelligence to study at bachelor+ level. Formerly, those people had jobs at MBO level 1-4, that paid them a decent salary, like 30% above minimum wage, but now there are no jobs at that level.

As QuantumIguana mentioned the automated car.... where are you going to employ the truck, taxi, and bus drivers who will be out of a job? You can hire anyone who can drive a car/truck/bus, teach them how to park or drive the vehicle in case of an emergency, and you're done. In short, if there are jobs in that space after this automation, salaries will instantly drop to minimum wage as there's nothing to do apart from taking control in an emergency.

How is a self driving car going to know when an emergency is developing? Will it be able to tell is something is developing half a mile down the road?
When I am driving can I can see if something is starting to happen and maybe do something to avoid it.
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