Page Numbers, Percentage, or nothing at all

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I'll reiterate:

Assume we both have the same reader with the same settings such that the same text on both is identical. Assume we also have the same edition of an illustrated ebook. Since it's the same ebook we see the same ADE faux pagination.

If we both have the same eBook, but I have 6.8" screen and you have a 6" screen and we have different font sizes and different line height and different margins, we'll still have the exact same ADE page numbers. That's the point. The page numbers are the same for that eBook regardless of screen size and other settings.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If we both have the same eBook, but I have 6.8" screen and you have a 6" screen and we have different font sizes and different line height and different margins, we'll still have the exact same ADE page numbers. That's the point. The page numbers are the same for that eBook regardless of screen size and other settings.

Yes, I understand this. I've acknowledged this a number of times. Are you able to acknowledge the other side of this, that there is no consistency between different books on the same device?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

Yes, I understand this. I've acknowledged this a number of times. Are you able to acknowledge the other side of this, that there is no consistency between different books on the same device?

If they are different, then they won't be the same. So you won't get the same page numbers. Yes, I acknowledge that this is true.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If they are different, then they won't be the same. So you won't get the same page numbers. Yes, I acknowledge that this is true.

Good.

Now the argumentum ad absurdum. Consider this hypothetical situation: some books advance when you tap the right third of the screen and some books advance when you slide across the screen. The books that advance with a tap will not advance with a slide and the books that advance with a slide will not advance with a tap. Because "they are different".

Both actions are valid ways of advancing through a book. The problem -- the absurdity -- is in the inconsistency. A book being different should not change how the UI operates. A tap should work the same for every book. A slide should work the same for every book.

Faux pages should work the same for every book.

They don't. They can't.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ratinox

Faux pages should work the same for every book.

At least I can get consistent page numbers in my converted ePubs and in all my ePub readers. So, in my view, faux page numbers are definitely better than no page numbers.

This "page per screen" scheme has no appeal to me at all — especially when I found I could change the current page number by changing the font size.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by rcentros

At least I can get consistent page numbers in my converted ePubs and in all my ePub readers. So, in my view, faux page numbers are definitely better than no page numbers.

This "page per screen" scheme has no appeal to me at all — especially when I found I could change the current page number by changing the font size.

I'm not arguing in favor of page per screen. I didn't like it on my iLiad and I don't like it now. While this does have the benefit of providing some consistency across different books on a single device it loses coherency as soon as anything changes.

I don't know what the best solution is. I do know that anything based on the concept of a page isn't it. Maybe counting words really is that solution.

[dordale]

I seem to be in the minority here...I actually am happy with the change Kobo made to the per book page numbers. For whatever reason, I like the page numbers to represent the number of screens and the fact that total "pages" changes whenever I increase or decrease the font size. Maybe this a leftover preference from my early e-reader days with the Sony readers. That's the way Sony counted pages when using their proprietary LRF format--before they updated their readers to handle ePubs.

But, I have noticed that the Kobo implementation of pages/screens per book isn't precise. I haven't read a lot since upgrading my firmware, but in the little I have read I've noticed that every 8 to 10 screens the page number will remain the same for two screens.

I can see where people would like to have consistent page numbers so they can manually sync between devices--but this isn't a concern for me. My two main devices are a Kobo and a Kindle--and both have different page numbering systems (both now and before the latest Kobo update). It really isn't hard for me to sync between devices without relying on page numbers--I just go to the correct chapter and scroll until I find where I left off on my other device.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sorry, but that's incorrect. A is illustrated. B is not. A has illustrations in each chapter and a full page illustration before each chapter. Lets say that in A page 3 is at the beginning of chapter 2. in B, the start of chapter 2 will not be page 32. It will be a lower page number. And in some cases, A is a different size to B. So that alone will make different page sizes.

I can't work out from this example if you understand that the illustrations in an epub will have virtually no effect on the Adobe RMSDK page numbering algorithm. The algorithm is purely looking at the compressed size of the files in the spine. The images won't be in the spline. Hence, no matter how much space they take up on the screen, the pages will pretty much the same as for the non-illustrated version.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

Good.

Now the argumentum ad absurdum. Consider this hypothetical situation: some books advance when you tap the right third of the screen and some books advance when you slide across the screen. The books that advance with a tap will not advance with a slide and the books that advance with a slide will not advance with a tap. Because "they are different".

Both actions are valid ways of advancing through a book. The problem -- the absurdity -- is in the inconsistency. A book being different should not change how the UI operates. A tap should work the same for every book. A slide should work the same for every book.

Faux pages should work the same for every book.

They don't. They can't.

If you have taping turned on, you can still swipe. If you have swipe turned on, you cannot tap. This has nothing to do with the eBook. It has to do with the settings on your Kobo. So how move forward or back does not make the same eBook on two different Kobo different. It just means you may prefer to tap and I prefer to swipe.

ADE pages do with the same for every ePub RMSDK can display. You're idea of different is not always correct as in your way to change the page example and how ADE page numbers work (since you think they don;t always work the same for every book).

[lkmiller]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Kepubs used to have their own algorithm which counted ~320 words as a page for book but used the number of screens for chapter. Now screens is used for both.

Ah, I guess I never paid attention to chapter counts for kepub before now. It's nice that epubs have pages for both chapter and book now. Just wish I could have that for my Kobo books without needing to sideload the epub versions. I guess the Pocket articles must have also used the former kepub page algorithm and now use screens. I have to keep reminding myself that things are not really as long as they seem.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If you have taping turned on, you can still swipe. If you have swipe turned on, you cannot tap. This has nothing to do with the eBook. It has to do with the settings on your Kobo. So how move forward or back does not make the same eBook on two different Kobo different. It just means you may prefer to tap and I prefer to swipe.

Follow the example, dude.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by dordale

I seem to be in the minority here...I actually am happy with the change Kobo made to the per book page numbers. For whatever reason, I like the page numbers to represent the number of screens and the fact that total "pages" changes whenever I increase or decrease the font size.

Me too.

It really isn't hard for me to sync between devices without relying on page numbers--I just go to the correct chapter and scroll until I find where I left off on my other device.

Last night I picked up a book I'd started on my Kobo (kepub) and read for a bit on my Nook (ePub). I did the same as you and was reading within about fifteen seconds.

After seeing others complain about the difficulty of this due to lack of consistent page numbers, I assumed I had wizard powers.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

After seeing others complain about the difficulty of this due to lack of consistent page numbers, I assumed I had wizard powers.

I never said it was difficult. I've only been saying that it's inconsistent and that inconsistent behavior is bad UI design.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I never said it was difficult. I've only been saying that it's inconsistent and that inconsistent behavior is bad UI design.

Expecting the same behavior across Barnes and Noble's Nook and Kobo's Clara seems unrealistic and has nothing to do with UI.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Expecting the same behavior across Barnes and Noble's Nook and Kobo's Clara seems unrealistic and has nothing to do with UI.

I think it is realistic, and it has everything to do with the user interface. For example, using word counts to mark and find reading positions is independent of devices. It would work the same on Kobo, Kindle, Nook, whatever. The presentation of these marks is part of the UI.

It is possible. I don't know if word counts is good, though. Consistency is only one factor of good systems and good UIs.