Epub3 Foot- End-notes

[roger64]

Hi

I'd like to do a limited trial using Sigil.

I know how to produce EPUB3 compliant ebooks that look very much like EPUB2 but are recognized as EPUB3 by Epubcheck thanks to writer2xhtml converter (including metadata).

My "limited trial" would help me to learn more about pop-up endnotes. The trial book has a small number of them now fitted with "classical" links.

- Is there a way to process them to the new pop-up style?
- Do you recommend some kind of pop-up model?
- Is a fallback necessary? (could be a heavy work for each note?)

[DiapDealer]

There is no "pop up style/model" to be applied to epubs. Popup (foot|end)notes are a function of readers, not epubs. Are you talking about using html5/epub3 "aside" elements and epub:type="noteref|footnote" that iBooks has incorporated as popups into its reading system?

[roger64]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

There is no "pop up style/model" to be applied to epubs. Popup (foot|end)notes are a function of readers, not epubs. Are you talking about using html5/epub3 "aside" elements and epub:type="noteref|footnote" that iBooks has incorporated as popups into its reading system?

Thanks for this reply. It seems I misunderstood something about it. Yes, it was about aside elements and epubtype=noteref as I did not have any other information.

Recently I had a look at an EPUB3 with some advanced features (audio files, pop-up images, these ones in conjunction with javascript are OK with Sigil 9.3) and pop-up footnotes of the above kind. To be honest, for these last ones, I am still looking for a software that could make them work (I have no IPAD).

This EPUB3 could not be properly displayed with the Calibre viewer.

This foot/endnote question has been around for quite a while and it looks like chicken and egg. On touch screens, foot/endnotes are not that much reliable, even with bigger anchors. This makes the arrival and generalization of a new generation of footnotes more desirable.

... So, we'll still wait for them to be supported with our ebook-readers. Will Sigil display them correctly soon?

[Doitsu]

@roger64: Many apps, for example Calibre, use heuristics to detect footnotes and display them in popup windows. I.e., you won't have to convert your ePub2 books to ePub3 books to get popup footnotes.

Some time ago I did some tests with different ePub3 footnote types and believe that rear-notes (end-notes) wrapped in aside tags, are best in terms of ePub2 and iBooks compatibility. (The last two footnotes in my test ePub are encoded in this way.)

Here's a short app compatibility breakdown:

iBooks: only footnotes 1, 4 and 5 work; they're rendered as popups
ADE: only footnotes 2, 3, 4 and 5 work in ADE 1.7-4.0
Azardi Reader: only footnote 1 is rendered as a popup footnote; the remaining footnotes are rendered as end-notes.
Gitden Reader/Namo PubtreeViewer/Calibre: all footnotes are being displayed as popup footnotes

For mobile devices I'd definitely recommend the free Gitden Reader/Namo PubtreeViewer iOS/Android apps.

[DiapDealer]

@Doitsu: just as an FYI, Mantano/Bookari on Android treats your footnote test just like Azardi (footnote one is a popup, the rest are endnotes). I believe it uses the Readium engine for rendering EPUB3s.

Out of curiosity, have you used Gitden or Namo on Android? I only ask because they both act extremely flaky on my Android tablet (6.0.1). Namo won't popup any of your footnotes for me (and won't let me turn to the next page or see the endnotes at all), and while Gitden does render all your footnotes as popups, the page turning on it is prohibitively slow (for all EPUB3s). Perhaps they're more polished on iOS?

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Out of curiosity, have you used Gitden or Namo on Android?

I tested both the iOS and Android versions and actually found the iOS versions more flaky.

However, I tested the Android apps only on an ancient 4.4.4 Kitkat tablet. Maybe these apps don't play nice with 6.0.1 and need to be updated.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Gitden does render all your footnotes as popups, the page turning on it is prohibitively slow (for all EPUB3s).

It's not that fast on my tablet either, but the speed is acceptable.

BTW, the latest ADE for Android version is based on RMSDK 12.5 = ADE 4.5, which supports ePub3 books. But like the desktop version (and Readium) ADE doesn't support popup footnotes.

[KevinH]

I have recently looked into this for Sigil. Here is what I found:

1. pop-up footnotes can be as easy as injecting a simple javascript as long as you have a recent version of jQuery (Sigil's is ancient, it has to be updated first and then any incompatibilities fixed) around to access.

2. endnotes are harder as the target of the link is not typically inside the current xhtml file and actually exists in some other place. This sometimes requires the reading software to preprocess the endnotes to build a list for the entire document or to actually load and parse a final endnotes document on the fly via javascript.

3. mouse-over and tooltip type pop-ups done by javascript do not work well with many mobile devices. So some approaches use a combination of javascript and css, and actually preprocess the DOM tree, rewriting it to intercept the link in javascript. Sigil can not use this approach in BV as nothing can rewrite the DOM otherwise we get bad xhtml back out of BookView (changed by the javascript - this is the same reason we can not see MathML in BV, only in PV).

4. In Sigil, intercepting the links in C++/Qt without changing the DOM should be easy in both BV (and PV?), so there may be a way to handle pop-up footnotes and possibly pop-up endnotes with a Qt dialog being popped up in place of a target link. I will look into this.

But the idea would be not to make all footnotes pop-up, but only implement the approach used by iBooks and only in epub3 where the proper semantic epub:type noteref and footnote are used in the link and the target aside.

Fallbacks -
So in epub3, for readers that allow javascript, if you use footnotes (not endnotes), you should be able to detect what reading system you are on, and if needed pop-up your own footnotes easily as a fallback for the reader. If no javascript is allowed on the epub3 reader, then you are pretty much out of luck and must rely on the reader's internal software to handle things.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by roger64

... So, we'll still wait for them to be supported with our ebook-readers. Will Sigil display them correctly soon?

"Correctly" may be the wrong term.
I don't believe the "Popping up" of foot- and/or end-notes to be a requirement/recommendation of the EPUB3 specification. Reading systems can handle them in any way they see fit, AFAIK.

As far as how Sigil displays them, I don't know if there's any plans to handle them in any special way. Kevin may have plans or other ideas about it--I'll let him speak to that--but for myself, I don't foresee coding any special handling of footnotes (heuristic or otherwise) into Sigil. I wouldn't want to give people the false impression that they've made an EPUB whose footnotes will universally "Pop Up." I think it's best that they rely on verifying how these things work on their target reading system(s).

It would be different if Sigil were an actual reading system instead of an editing/creation tool.

I could be all wet, though, and Kevin could be coding popup footnotes for Sigil as we speak. Hopefully he'll see this thread and comment on it himself.

EDIT: see... I told you I could be all wet (see Kevin's post while I was typing).

[KevinH]

Hi DiapDealer,

You are right, how this is handled is reader specific, but in general this does highlight the impact of using semantics (epub:type) to allow any reader to handle special cases as they see fit.

So if we do decide to add support for popup footnotes (and that is still a big if, and it would come *after* main epub3 support was complete), I think it should only be in PV and only for epub3 and only to show that the correct epub:type attributes are set (IMHO).

In other words, we use Sigil and this feature to nudge epub3 developers to set the correct semantics all throughout their document so that special cases like these can be handled by readers.

How about that idea?

Take care,

KevinH

[Toxaris]

I would love if they would finally find a solution so that footnotes will be displayed the same as in paper books at the bottom of the page. So, no popups/hovering/links/etc.

[KevinH]

Hi Toxaris,

You mean for fixed layout, pre-paginated ebooks, right? I am not sure how this could be handled in a reflowable without knowing the size of the page (so to speak).

KevinH

[James Granger]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

I would love if they would finally find a solution so that footnotes will be displayed the same as in paper books at the bottom of the page. So, no popups/hovering/links/etc.

but in kindle and calibre the footnotes are appearing below now.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by KevinH

So if we do decide to add support for popup footnotes (and that is still a big if, and it would come *after* main epub3 support was complete), I think it should only be in PV and only for epub3 and only to show that the correct epub:type attributes are set (IMHO).

In other words, we use Sigil and this feature to nudge epub3 developers to set the correct semantics all throughout their document so that special cases like these can be handled by readers.

How about that idea?

That's fine by me. I just didn't want Sigil to get into the business of guessing what might be a footnote or not. As long as it's used in the manner you described--to indicate that the semantics were set properly in a v3 EPUB--I don't mind. I just didn't want beginners seeing pop-ups for all their footnotes (EPUB2or3; semantics or no) and thinking that's the way it's going to work everywhere ("Look ... Popup footonotes just work like magic!").

[BetterRed]

I would like a separate, optional, scrolling, tabbed sidebar - for end notes, references etc. The notion that one wants to look at a note or a reference via a popup splattered on top of what you're reading in isolation of adjacent notes/references is seriously flawed. Context has a meaning beyond right mouse buttons and long finger gestures

BR

[Toxaris]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Hi Toxaris,

You mean for fixed layout, pre-paginated ebooks, right? I am not sure how this could be handled in a reflowable without knowing the size of the page (so to speak).

KevinH

No, I mean for reflowable books. I know there is no way to do it know, but I really hoped that in ePUB3 they would have made that possible. Ah well, I can dream can I?