Expansion of Book Uploads for the iLiad & for other devices

[Hadrien]

Don't expect a "one format to rule them all" any time soon.
There's 2 reasons for this:
- reflowable formats and fixed version are both needed for the moment. As long as reflowable formats won't provide hyphenation and more advanced typesetting, PDF and similar formats will be the alternative.
- DRM: both publishers and hardware manufacturers will use DRM. Right now, Mobipocket and LRF are already in competition for this market.

The first problem could be fixed if all e-ink readers adopted much more advanced software for rendering reflowable formats. But for hyphenation, you need a dictionnary, so the problem isn't necessarily that simple: for each book, you need to know it's language. I'm not sure that the metadata of every reflowable format contain this information.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hadrien

Don't expect a "one format to rule them all" any time soon.
There's 2 reasons for this:
- reflowable formats and fixed version are both needed for the moment. As long as reflowable formats won't provide hyphenation and more advanced typesetting, PDF and similar formats will be the alternative.
- DRM: both publishers and hardware manufacturers will use DRM. Right now, Mobipocket and LRF are already in competition for this market.

The first problem could be fixed if all e-ink readers adopted much more advanced software for rendering reflowable formats. But for hyphenation, you need a dictionnary, so the problem isn't necessarily that simple: for each book, you need to know it's language. I'm not sure that the metadata of every reflowable format contain this information.

I have used Wordperfect. What Wordperfect did was put in non-displayable hyphens that were used to hyphenate words. So if these ebook formats supported that then the hyphens could be put in at the time f the book creation and the software creating the books can handle that and not the reader. Also, it would allow us to put in hyphens as needed as well.

Given all the various reflowable ebook formats today, which one(s) do you feel are the best ones (ignoring the DRM issue)?

[ath]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

But I also understand that as PDF (or any other locked down format) gains users, it makes it that much harder for a standard eBook format to be created.

That's PDF would be very bad as a general format for e-books.

As a format for a specific reader it makes perfect sense -- except for a publisher who expects to make money out of handcrafting books.

[Alexander Turcic]

If you guys agree with me, this is how we'll do it:

• In the iRex iLiad forum, we create an upload category for the iLiad - analogous to the upload section for the Reader.
• In the E-Books forum, we create an upload category for multi-formatted e-books, i.e. e-books in formats that can be easily converted for a wide range of readers.

Remarks:

• It's obviously OK to upload a book multiple times if you have it ready in various formats.
• Each upload section requires moderation (see HarryT's excellent guidelines). If you like to join our team as a moderator to keep an eye on things, help to improve MobileRead, and hang out with a bunch of really cool guys, please PM me.
• The E-Books view tool has been rewritten last night to support multiple upload categories.

[Robert Marquard]

The question of HTML/dynamic vs. PDF/static page is a question of what an ebook should be. Static means the ebook should be just like a paper book with only minor enhancements wheras dynamic content tries to introduce new features to the reading process. Which one will win is impossible to predict.

Soft hyphens do work in modern browsers so the HTML source could be augmented by shy entities.

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by TadW

But... I have one suggestion:
On the frontpage, remove uploads from the "Latest Forum Activity" section. Instead add a new section specifically for latest e-book uploads. This way we can track both more easily, user threads and user uploads.

This is a good suggestion and I am planning on doing this. Thanks!

[Hadrien]

Originally Posted by Robert Marquard

The question of HTML/dynamic vs. PDF/static page is a question of what an ebook should be. Static means the ebook should be just like a paper book with only minor enhancements wheras dynamic content tries to introduce new features to the reading process. Which one will win is impossible to predict.

Soft hyphens do work in modern browsers so the HTML source could be augmented by shy entities.

You're wrong, you can have links in what you call static pages too. HTML is not much more dynamic than some fixed size format, it's just easier to reflow. If you want advance design and typesetting, fixed size formats are much more powerful than HTML.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

If you guys agree with me, this is how we'll do it:

• In the iRex iLiad forum, we create an upload category for the iLiad - analogous to the upload section for the Reader.
• In the E-Books forum, we create an upload category for multi-formatted e-books, i.e. e-books in formats that can be easily converted for a wide range of readers.

What I think would be good is a just one database of books/links. But it would need another field to show what format it was in. And I also feel that if anyone wants to upload the original source, then that would be done separately in a different forum with the database would show that in the format field. In the topic, after the date, put in the format i.e. LIT, LRF1 (Librie) LRF2 (Reader), PDB, etc.. LRF for the Reader might not work on the Librie which is why LRF1 and LRF2.

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

You are still thinking along the lines of "every device should have their own close, proprietary format that they support" and that we need to translate from a common format to that closed, proprietary format.

That's what we basically have today - with everyone disagreeing on what the common format is.

No, no! That's not what I'm thinking about. The reason is mostly esthetic. The people working on books here are working for a visual output, and I was concerned that the nice things they do might look like crap when ported to an other device. What I'm thinking of is a translator that would take this into account. Because this is what we could say is the MR signature, not the code, the visual aspect.

[Hadrien]

I could easily enable Feedbooks to communicate with other websites too, using XML or even a full REST service. This way, people could find both handmade books and books available on Feedbooks using the same interface.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Robert Marquard

The question of HTML/dynamic vs. PDF/static page is a question of what an ebook should be. Static means the ebook should be just like a paper book with only minor enhancements wheras dynamic content tries to introduce new features to the reading process. Which one will win is impossible to predict.

Unless all eBook readers are the same size, and all human eyes are the same, I feel that dynamic will win hands down.

We've already covered the reader physical size issue.

But there is great benefit to allowing the reader to choose how the book is formatted. A person who has trouble reading italics, for example, can tell the eBook reader to replace italics with a different font - making it much easier to read. Also, someone who has good eyesight can opt for smaller text, while people with not-so-good eyesight can opt for larger text.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

No, no! That's not what I'm thinking about. The reason is mostly esthetic. The people working on books here are working for a visual output, and I was concerned that the nice things they do might look like crap when ported to an other device. What I'm thinking of is a translator that would take this into account. Because this is what we could say is the MR signature, not the code, the visual aspect.

I think I know what you are talking about. Too often I see a PDF-translated-LIT file. A file that can't be reflowed because the information simply isn't there in the original.

That's the problem with translation - some data is usually filtered out.

For example, a OpenDoc that's translated to a PDF. The PDF does not contain paragraph breaks anymore. PDF didn't need that information, so there was no provision made for it. So when translating a PDF back to an OpenDoc, someone has to provide that paragraph break information.

What I want is to eliminate the need for any translation process.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I think I know what you are talking about. Too often I see a PDF-translated-LIT file. A file that can't be reflowed because the information simply isn't there in the original.

That's the problem with translation - some data is usually filtered out.

For example, a OpenDoc that's translated to a PDF. The PDF does not contain paragraph breaks anymore. PDF didn't need that information, so there was no provision made for it. So when translating a PDF back to an OpenDoc, someone has to provide that paragraph break information.

What I want is to eliminate the need for any translation process.

Why someone would want to go from LIT to PDF is just beyond me. The problem is a lot of people are totally 100% clueless and it shows. How many times have you seen an ebook in text look like total crap? Take the ebook in LIT, convert it to HTML, do away with the ToC (because it's a seperate file and they are too lazy to deal with it), convert to PDF which will look ok, then use a PDF to text converter that loses all the formatting such as italics, emdashes, proper paragraph ends, and you can easily get one hell of a shitty mess all from a well formatted LIT file.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why someone would want to go from LIT to PDF is just beyond me.

They were going from PDF, running pdftohtml and using the resulting html file to create a LIT file.

The problem was the original source for the LIT was a PDF document. So no paragraph markers were there.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem is a lot of people are totally 100% clueless and it shows. How many times have you seen an ebook in text look like total crap?

Too many to count.

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What I think would be good is a just one database of books/links. But it would need another field to show what format it was in. And I also feel that if anyone wants to upload the original source, then that would be done separately in a different forum with the database would show that in the format field. In the topic, after the date, put in the format i.e. LIT, LRF1 (Librie) LRF2 (Reader), PDB, etc.. LRF for the Reader might not work on the Librie which is why LRF1 and LRF2.

Good suggestion and I think it will be similar to what we'll have set up (by tomorrow or so). If you go to the E-Books Uploads, you'll see a new column that shows the format (or the device the book was specifically made for). Also there is a drop-down menu where you can sort for a specific format of uploaded books. I think this is easier than having us add the format info in the title every time.