toc and tock!

EMEL · 07-24-2018, 02:35 PM

Hi all, please

I already have a "native" toc in the book. Must I have another? and in this case I have 2 extra now!
I tried to delete them and now I have error messages.
if I must have these 2 extra toc can I ghost them somehow?
any info greatly appreciated.

DNSB · 07-24-2018, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMEL

Hi all, please

I already have a "native" toc in the book. Must I have another? and in this case I have 2 extra now!
I tried to delete them and now I have error messages.
if I must have these 2 extra toc can I ghost them somehow?
any info greatly appreciated.

Hmmm... not sure what you mean by a "native TOC'. Do you mean the toc.ncx file in an epub2 or the nav xhtml document in an epub3 (with an optional toc.ncx for compatibility)? Or just a file with a list of links to the sections? The first two are required, the third is not. My ereaders use with the toc.ncx or the nav xhtml document as a source for the table of contents.

DiapDealer · 07-24-2018, 05:31 PM

A toc.ncx is required for EPUB2.
A NAV document is required for EPUB3.

Sigil's ToC tools always operate on the required element--according to the current EPUB's version--and neither can be deleted. The exception is the completely optional "Create HTML Table of Contents" tool (which does the same thing regardless of the EPUB's version--build an optional html toc from the required internal toc.)

A NAV document may look like a regular old html file to the uninitiated, but it's not.

Sigil includes an empty NCX in all EPUB3s. It's your choice if you want to bother manually keeping the NCX in sync with the required NAV for backward compatibility with EPUB2 reading systems. The only way to remove the NCX from an EPUB3 is to use a Sigil Output Plugin to save a copy of the EPUB after all editing is done. You just have to remember that if you ever need to use Sigil to edit that EPUB again, you'll need to use the NCXRemove output plugin again.

I've no idea where your "2 extra toc"s might be coming from, or what they might represent. Not enough info.

Notjohn · 07-25-2018, 09:27 AM

Perhaps I'm missing the point here, but all ebooks (all Kindle books anyhow) are supposed to have two TOCs, an actual or html TOC toward the front of the book that mimics the one you'll see in a print edition, and a virtual or logical TOC that's accessed by the newer e-readers. I do most of my reading on a Fire tablet, so it is the logical TOC that I regularly use.

DiapDealer · 07-25-2018, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Perhaps I'm missing the point here, but all ebooks (all Kindle books anyhow) are supposed to have two TOCs, an actual or html TOC toward the front of the book that mimics the one you'll see in a print edition, and a virtual or logical TOC that's accessed by the newer e-readers. I do most of my reading on a Fire tablet, so it is the logical TOC that I regularly use.

And therein lies the problem. There is no EPUB requirement that an ebook have two ToCs. And Sigil is an EPUB editor.

We certainly strive to make it possible to use Sigil-built EPUBs as source-material for Kindle Books, but we're not concerned in the least with making Sigil comply with any Kindlebook requirements that a) conflict with existing EPUB standards, or b) have no correlated EPUB-standard requirement).

Please don't complicate this thread with scenarios that weren't brought up in the original question. If the OP has questions about Kindlebooks, let them ask them.

AlanHK · 07-27-2018, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

all ebooks (all Kindle books anyhow) are supposed to have two TOCs

That "supposed to" is a preference (rule?) of Amazon, I think. It's not actually required to have a html toc by the file spec of either ePub or Kindle.
For some short books it'd just be a single entry and so unnecessary. I've made such without a toc page and exported to AZW3, they work on my Kindle as expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMEL

I tried to delete them and now I have error messages.

Cite the error messages. It may just be that there are references/links to the deleted files; click on each error and it should take you to the code and you can delete the references as well.

If the built-in F7 check isn't sufficient, install the epubcheck plugin for deeper checking and more error messages.

DiapDealer · 07-27-2018, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanHK

I've made such without a toc page and exported to AZW3, they work on my Kindle as expected.

There's a world of difference between, "works for me at home" and "survives the KDP upload/conversion process; shows up in the store intact; has a working Preview; and the Look Inside functionality performs as expected."

Notjohn · 07-28-2018, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanHK

That "supposed to" is a preference (rule?) of Amazon, I think. It's not actually required to have a html toc by the file spec of either ePub or Kindle.

Actually, I think it's a KDP requirement that's not enforced. If you ask, you will be told that you must, but if you don't comply, probably nothing untoward will happen.

Such at least was the case when the NCX file first came to live with us.

Hitch · 08-02-2018, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Actually, I think it's a KDP requirement that's not enforced. If you ask, you will be told that you must, but if you don't comply, probably nothing untoward will happen.

Such at least was the case when the NCX file first came to live with us.

Not quite--if you do not have a TOC, and a single reader--just one--complains--you'll receive a KQN, (Kindle Quality Notice)and be required to fix it.

Ditto TOCs placed at the back.

Trust me on this one, please. I have to fix these suckers for (new to us) authors that just KNEW BETTER and decided that a TOC was unnecessary, cumbersome, etc.

Hitch

Notjohn · 08-03-2018, 03:12 PM

I do trust you, Hitch, and I'll never again use the "Required but not really" trope.

Hitch · 08-03-2018, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I do trust you, Hitch, and I'll never again use the "Required but not really" trope.

We have SEVEN mobis coming in, from one author, this coming week. All KQNed. What a silly hassle, for no really great reason.

I mean, I get it, I do, if you have a super-long TOC, all "chapter 1, chapter 2..." and so on. But Amazon customers and readers can be REMARKABLY picayune about the features in the book. If they have to click twice, to go to a detailed TOC, rather than once, WELL! The sky is falling!

Hitch

AlanHK · 08-08-2018, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

There's a world of difference between, "works for me at home" and "survives the KDP upload/conversion process; shows up in the store intact; has a working Preview; and the Look Inside functionality performs as expected."

Yes, that was my point: it works fine with the software generator and hardware player, but Amazon may not accept it. Similar to e.g. what you can use as the starting page, (I would make it the cover, or title page failing that if it was allowed) or having a small image for the cover.
I guess complying with this rule is why I see those inane contents pages that just have a link to the "Start" page.

Hitch · 08-08-2018, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanHK

Yes, that was my point: it works fine with the software generator and hardware player, but Amazon may not accept it. Similar to e.g. what you can use as the starting page, (I would make it the cover, or title page failing that if it was allowed) or having a small image for the cover.
I guess complying with this rule is why I see those inane contents pages that just have a link to the "Start" page.

Yes, that's exactly why. It started with James Patterson, and TBH, we've been using that layout--we call it the "Wee TOC"--to ensure that our anti-TOC clients don't get KQNs, for at least...gosh, 2-3 years now?

Hitch

EMEL · 08-12-2018, 01:41 PM

Hi thanks for reply. I created my own TOC in Ibooks author with pictures and custom indents etc.(the "native" toc) and then the program makes another one so I end up with 2 full ones.

anyway I can get the program to recognize mine?

EMEL · 08-12-2018, 01:43 PM

They keep getting back to me and apologizing but have provided no real answers?
it is identical to the one I uploaded 3 years ago except for some spell checking.

07-24-2018, 02:35 PM	#1
EMEL Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jul 2018 Device: none	toc and tock! Hi all, please I already have a "native" toc in the book. Must I have another? and in this case I have 2 extra now! I tried to delete them and now I have error messages. if I must have these 2 extra toc can I ghost them somehow? any info greatly appreciated.

07-24-2018, 05:31 PM	#3
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,549 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	A toc.ncx is required for EPUB2. A NAV document is required for EPUB3. Sigil's ToC tools always operate on the required element--according to the current EPUB's version--and neither can be deleted. The exception is the completely optional "Create HTML Table of Contents" tool (which does the same thing regardless of the EPUB's version--build an optional html toc from the required internal toc.) A NAV document may look like a regular old html file to the uninitiated, but it's not. Sigil includes an empty NCX in all EPUB3s. It's your choice if you want to bother manually keeping the NCX in sync with the required NAV for backward compatibility with EPUB2 reading systems. The only way to remove the NCX from an EPUB3 is to use a Sigil Output Plugin to save a copy of the EPUB after all editing is done. You just have to remember that if you ever need to use Sigil to edit that EPUB again, you'll need to use the NCXRemove output plugin again. I've no idea where your "2 extra toc"s might be coming from, or what they might represent. Not enough info. Last edited by DiapDealer; 07-24-2018 at 05:52 PM.

08-12-2018, 01:43 PM	#15
EMEL Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jul 2018 Device: none	Why KDP has error in my upload? They keep getting back to me and apologizing but have provided no real answers? it is identical to the one I uploaded 3 years ago except for some spell checking.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Tick Tock,new firmware soon?	jackastor	Kobo Developer's Corner	1	02-23-2016 05:48 PM
Tick Tock, its that time of year....	jackastor	Kobo Reader	0	12-02-2014 06:37 PM
Multiple HTML files w/ TOC to MOBI, not added in order listed in TOC	dysfunction	Conversion	3	01-03-2014 12:40 AM
Free (Kindle) Tick Tock by James Patterson with Michael Ledwidge [Ended]	arcadata	Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links)	21	01-24-2011 07:12 PM
Making a TOC for LRFs? Issues with Calibre + LRF TOC editor not working	Magitek	LRF	0	05-06-2009 01:25 PM

07-25-2018, 09:27 AM	#4
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,515 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	Perhaps I'm missing the point here, but all ebooks (all Kindle books anyhow) are supposed to have two TOCs, an actual or html TOC toward the front of the book that mimics the one you'll see in a print edition, and a virtual or logical TOC that's accessed by the newer e-readers. I do most of my reading on a Fire tablet, so it is the logical TOC that I regularly use.

08-03-2018, 03:12 PM	#10
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,515 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	I do trust you, Hitch, and I'll never again use the "Required but not really" trope.

08-12-2018, 01:41 PM	#14
EMEL Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jul 2018 Device: none	Hi thanks for reply. I created my own TOC in Ibooks author with pictures and custom indents etc.(the "native" toc) and then the program makes another one so I end up with 2 full ones. anyway I can get the program to recognize mine?

Advert

Advert