Just how far can you go?

exaltedwombat · 11-18-2012, 07:50 AM

OK, that title got your attention!

Any thoughts from the folk here who do commercial eBook design on how clever it's currently sensible to get with layout?

We've all had customers who baulk when it doesn't look "just like the printed book". Quite advanced layout can be achieved in Sigil, and it renders nicely in ADE. But then you transfer to (say) an Android tablet, with its choice of epub readers, and everything falls apart. Not to mention the real-life necessity of having to also deliver a mobi version. And whatever we think of mobi, this is a non-negotiable - the book's GOING to be put on the Amazon shop.

Is there any point in going beyond simple text with inline pictures and graphics? Is it now safe to use simple, non-nested tables? Attempting to include fonts other than generic serif or sans-serif? Is there an official-looking statement I can direct clients to laying out just what features it is reasonable to expect?

Comments from people who create eBooks for general distribution would be of great interest!

kiwidude · 11-18-2012, 08:00 AM

This sort of thread (and far too many others in my opinion) should not be in the Sigil forum. There are other forums on MobileRead more appropriate.

I know there are a lot of very helpful folks who kindly answer such threads, but it does rather dilute the purpose of having a forum dedicated to Sigil the "application" and people wanting to either ask questions about it or report problems for the developers to respond to.

cybmole · 11-18-2012, 08:10 AM

+1 to that.

I'm usually up for discussing epub related issues here, as this is where most of the expertise is, but this one is off-topic

DiapDealer · 11-18-2012, 09:30 AM

I'm definitely from the "less is best" school of thought. The first thing I try to do (and I'm not a commercial ePub designer by any means; just to be clear) is forget I've ever seen the print version. I just don't consider it very relevant (in "normal" mainly-text narratives). The ebook is its own beast and needs its own consideration. Reflow changes the game and I wish authors/publishers/customers would just accept that instead instead of fighting it tooth and nail.

So while I'm certainly not advocating a straight text-only representation, I prefer elegant simplicity: The bare minimum that will appeal to fans of typographic tradition while at the same time, not expose the constraints imposed by any particular format/renderer.

mrmikel · 11-18-2012, 09:47 AM

I agree completely. If you want exact duplication make it a PDF and enjoy it on a tablet big enough to render a whole page at a time.

That is even true in print. There is a reason why few coffee table books are published in paperback size.

theducks · 11-18-2012, 09:35 PM

I think the 80/20 rule should be considered.
Your design should render nice (not necessarily perfect) on 80% of the dedicate type reading devices in current use.
If you can make it work well on any of the 20%, you get bonus points

Note: I used devices and NOT Market share

mrmikel · 11-19-2012, 06:38 AM

Most advanced layout will blow up when you make the page large enough, so you have to accept you can't win em all -- heck some days I am glad to win ANY!

I think even with PDF it will be less pleasant if you increase the size enough.

But someone who has vision troubles may be might pleased to be able to use it at all.

JSWolf · 11-19-2012, 06:38 PM

The rule of thumb is that if it looks good in ADE, then it's the fault of the non-ADE app and thus, forget about it because you won't please everyone. Use Bluefire Reader on Android to test the eBook. If it works there and not in other apps, then it's the fault of the other apps.

exaltedwombat · 11-20-2012, 07:46 AM

Trouble is, the customer isn't interested in platform wars, or in telling potential customers what system they SHOULD have chosen. Just about selling copies and not getting complaints.

DiapDealer · 11-20-2012, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

Trouble is, the customer isn't interested in platform wars, or in telling potential customers what system they SHOULD have chosen. Just about selling copies and not getting complaints.

If just "selling copies and not getting complaints" is truly ALL they're interested in, then they've forfeited their rights to nitpick about the formatting of a technological "product" whose creation and limitations they know nothing about. Problem solved.

The issues stem from the fact that most customers care about waaaaay more than just "selling copies and not getting complaints." Let's face it ... life would be a dream (for ebook creators) if that's all they worried about.

JSWolf · 11-20-2012, 01:26 PM

If publishers took the time and effort to learn how to make properly formatted eBooks, then they'd have a lot less error prone eBooks and they would look better and give a more satisfying read.

colinsky · 11-20-2012, 01:33 PM

If aspects of the design and layout are important to the content, feel, or message that the author wants to portray, they should be integrated as much as possible into the electronic edition (or replicated "equivalently" in some way)--they are part of the intended experience. If they are incidental to the text (for instance, a publisher style convention), they are less important to duplicate exactly.

JSWolf · 11-20-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinsky

If aspects of the design and layout are important to the content, feel, or message that the author wants to portray, they should be integrated as much as possible into the electronic edition (or replicated "equivalently" in some way)--they are part of the intended experience. If they are incidental to the text (for instance, a publisher style convention), they are less important to duplicate exactly.

A lot of eBooks are formatted poorly. Wide margins, paragraph spaces, sometimes no indents, text set to small by default, large space at the beginning of chapters and other assorted mess. That's not a good reading experience.

Jellby · 11-23-2012, 01:46 PM

An ebook with minimal formatting (no hard-wired margins, no unneeded embedded font, no fancy alignments...) is almost guaranteed to be decently rendered and readable in pretty much any reader.

An ebook with lots of bells and whistles that try to make it look as close as possible as the printed book in some particular reader/format, is almost guaranteed to fail miserably and produce an unreadable piece of cr... text in some other reader, or with some particular set of preferences (some people like reading in landscape, or with large font...).

So, my advice is to be rather minimalistic as far as formatting goes, and only add other "nice" stuff after considering how it will look in readers that do not support that feature, or with wildly different settings.

JSWolf · 11-23-2012, 04:18 PM

If it renders fine in ADE, then it is the fault of the other reading app(s) botching things.

11-18-2012, 07:50 AM	#1
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	Just how far can you go? OK, that title got your attention! Any thoughts from the folk here who do commercial eBook design on how clever it's currently sensible to get with layout? We've all had customers who baulk when it doesn't look "just like the printed book". Quite advanced layout can be achieved in Sigil, and it renders nicely in ADE. But then you transfer to (say) an Android tablet, with its choice of epub readers, and everything falls apart. Not to mention the real-life necessity of having to also deliver a mobi version. And whatever we think of mobi, this is a non-negotiable - the book's GOING to be put on the Amazon shop. Is there any point in going beyond simple text with inline pictures and graphics? Is it now safe to use simple, non-nested tables? Attempting to include fonts other than generic serif or sans-serif? Is there an official-looking statement I can direct clients to laying out just what features it is reasonable to expect? Comments from people who create eBooks for general distribution would be of great interest!

11-18-2012, 09:30 AM	#4
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,546 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I'm definitely from the "less is best" school of thought. The first thing I try to do (and I'm not a commercial ePub designer by any means; just to be clear) is forget I've ever seen the print version. I just don't consider it very relevant (in "normal" mainly-text narratives). The ebook is its own beast and needs its own consideration. Reflow changes the game and I wish authors/publishers/customers would just accept that instead instead of fighting it tooth and nail. So while I'm certainly not advocating a straight text-only representation, I prefer elegant simplicity: The bare minimum that will appeal to fans of typographic tradition while at the same time, not expose the constraints imposed by any particular format/renderer. Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-18-2012 at 12:27 PM.

11-18-2012, 08:00 AM	#2
kiwidude Calibre Plugins Developer Posts: 4,636 Karma: 2162064 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Oasis	This sort of thread (and far too many others in my opinion) should not be in the Sigil forum. There are other forums on MobileRead more appropriate. I know there are a lot of very helpful folks who kindly answer such threads, but it does rather dilute the purpose of having a forum dedicated to Sigil the "application" and people wanting to either ask questions about it or report problems for the developers to respond to.

11-18-2012, 08:10 AM	#3
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	+1 to that. I'm usually up for discussing epub related issues here, as this is where most of the expertise is, but this one is off-topic

11-18-2012, 09:47 AM	#5
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	I agree completely. If you want exact duplication make it a PDF and enjoy it on a tablet big enough to render a whole page at a time. That is even true in print. There is a reason why few coffee table books are published in paperback size.

11-18-2012, 09:35 PM	#6
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 29,779 Karma: 54830978 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	I think the 80/20 rule should be considered. Your design should render nice (not necessarily perfect) on 80% of the dedicate type reading devices in current use. If you can make it work well on any of the 20%, you get bonus points Note: I used devices and NOT Market share

11-19-2012, 06:38 AM	#7
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	Most advanced layout will blow up when you make the page large enough, so you have to accept you can't win em all -- heck some days I am glad to win ANY! I think even with PDF it will be less pleasant if you increase the size enough. But someone who has vision troubles may be might pleased to be able to use it at all.

11-19-2012, 06:38 PM	#8
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,894 Karma: 128597114 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	The rule of thumb is that if it looks good in ADE, then it's the fault of the non-ADE app and thus, forget about it because you won't please everyone. Use Bluefire Reader on Android to test the eBook. If it works there and not in other apps, then it's the fault of the other apps.

11-20-2012, 07:46 AM	#9
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	Trouble is, the customer isn't interested in platform wars, or in telling potential customers what system they SHOULD have chosen. Just about selling copies and not getting complaints.

11-20-2012, 01:26 PM	#11
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,894 Karma: 128597114 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	If publishers took the time and effort to learn how to make properly formatted eBooks, then they'd have a lot less error prone eBooks and they would look better and give a more satisfying read.

11-20-2012, 01:33 PM	#12
colinsky Addict Posts: 233 Karma: 3232318 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: Sony PRS-300, PRS-T1, PRS-T3	If aspects of the design and layout are important to the content, feel, or message that the author wants to portray, they should be integrated as much as possible into the electronic edition (or replicated "equivalently" in some way)--they are part of the intended experience. If they are incidental to the text (for instance, a publisher style convention), they are less important to duplicate exactly.

11-23-2012, 01:46 PM	#14
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,515 Karma: 18512745 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	An ebook with minimal formatting (no hard-wired margins, no unneeded embedded font, no fancy alignments...) is almost guaranteed to be decently rendered and readable in pretty much any reader. An ebook with lots of bells and whistles that try to make it look as close as possible as the printed book in some particular reader/format, is almost guaranteed to fail miserably and produce an unreadable piece of cr... text in some other reader, or with some particular set of preferences (some people like reading in landscape, or with large font...). So, my advice is to be rather minimalistic as far as formatting goes, and only add other "nice" stuff after considering how it will look in readers that do not support that feature, or with wildly different settings.

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11-23-2012, 04:18 PM	#15
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,894 Karma: 128597114 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	If it renders fine in ADE, then it is the fault of the other reading app(s) botching things.