03-06-2018, 07:53 PM | #61 | |
Fanatic
Posts: 514
Karma: 2954711
Join Date: May 2006
|
Quote:
Jurisprudence around Internet downloads doesn't work based on where it's being made available from. If it did, then eReader and Fictionwise wouldn't have had to stop selling ebooks outside the US back in 2009, because their servers were in the US where it was legal for them to sell those ebooks. But they did. For purchased products, the point of sale is considered to be the computer on which the purchase is made. By the same token, if a product is downloaded for free, the location where the download is considered to have happened is the location of the computer that made the download, not the server where it was downloaded from. That's the way the Internet has worked for at least 9 years now. That's the way the courts are going to see it. You can say it shouldn't work that way until you're blue in the face, but good luck making that stick in the real world. |
|
03-06-2018, 08:02 PM | #62 | |
Addict
Posts: 281
Karma: 7724454
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Bethesda, MD, USA
Device: Kobo Aura H20, Kobo Clara HD
|
Quote:
It's like saying the bookshop in Minsk is making a book appear on a German's bookshelf in Berlin. The PG servers aren't in Germany. They can't make things appear on a German citizen's computer. That requires the action of a German citizen initiating a download, which causes a German network to reach out to an external one, then some other series of hops to transport that book into Germany and eventually onto the German's computer. Police your network by requiring the German ISP not to import contraband. Police your citizens for violating your copyright laws. That's how it's always worked in other media. You don't make the bookstore in Minsk require a passport and knowledge of other country's laws; you stop the import of things at the border, or hold the person liable for bringing illegal goods into the country. I understand that the German courts find it expedient to try to shift enforcement outside their jurisdiction, but it's a pretty major shift in international sovereignty that shouldn't happen lightly. |
|
03-06-2018, 08:08 PM | #63 | ||
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 7,032
Karma: 39379388
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: near Philadelphia USA
Device: Kindle Kids Edition, Fire HD 10 (11th generation)
|
Quote:
The Secret Adversary Quote:
Last edited by SteveEisenberg; 03-07-2018 at 06:56 AM. Reason: spelling |
||
03-06-2018, 08:16 PM | #64 | |
Connoisseur
Posts: 63
Karma: 1011094
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Device: Kindle Fire HE 8
|
Quote:
In the US and Germany's case, both are parties to copyright treaties and also mutual judicial enforcement treaties. If this were German court ruling on a hate speech issue, I could see your point. But this is clear. PG was violating German copyright law by making these still-under-copyright works available to German users. I feel for PG, I do. I don't like the precedent this makes, but this is the nature of the global Internet. |
|
03-06-2018, 08:22 PM | #65 | |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 7,032
Karma: 39379388
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: near Philadelphia USA
Device: Kindle Kids Edition, Fire HD 10 (11th generation)
|
Quote:
If you are right, Project Gutenberg America needs to move. |
|
03-06-2018, 08:37 PM | #66 |
....
Posts: 1,547
Karma: 18068960
Join Date: May 2012
Device: ....
|
Now that is a sweeping claim - to see why that is so, have a look, for example, at the legislation differentiating Origin Based states from Destination Based states for internet purchases over the internet.
|
03-06-2018, 08:47 PM | #67 | |
....
Posts: 1,547
Karma: 18068960
Join Date: May 2012
Device: ....
|
Quote:
If I am wrong in this could you point me to the relevant US legislation. |
|
03-06-2018, 09:00 PM | #68 | |
....
Posts: 1,547
Karma: 18068960
Join Date: May 2012
Device: ....
|
Quote:
There are often other exceptions where a country will not extradite to another even if an agreement exists, for example if the penalty for the offence in the country to be extradited to includes the death penalty. In that case, for example, it is not unknown for an extradition to still be made if the extradited to country guarantees that a death sentence will not be imposed. EDIT re. "generally"; comes to mind, without checking, that the only exceptions are crimes to do with taxation and revenue (would one know that would be so?), or if the convicted person was convicted in absence in which case they are treated as just being accused of the offence. Last edited by AnotherCat; 03-06-2018 at 09:13 PM. |
|
03-06-2018, 09:14 PM | #69 |
Addict
Posts: 393
Karma: 6700000
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gimel
Device: tablets
|
|
03-06-2018, 09:16 PM | #70 |
Addict
Posts: 393
Karma: 6700000
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gimel
Device: tablets
|
|
03-06-2018, 09:24 PM | #71 | |
Addict
Posts: 393
Karma: 6700000
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gimel
Device: tablets
|
Quote:
I've only known one ISP to block North Korean IP addresses, and that was only after their run in with the three letter agency that enforces that law. Amber |
|
03-07-2018, 12:01 AM | #72 |
Junior Member
Posts: 1
Karma: 10
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Device: Android phone/tablet
|
It would be one thing if S. Fischer were simply seeking a geoblock to prevent German users from accessing these books. Instead they are demanding the complete removal of these books from Project Gutenberg.
Quoting from S. Fischer's press release: "Alle Versuche des S. Fischer Verlags, Gutenberg.org ohne Befassung eines Gerichts dazu zu bewegen, diese Texte aus dem Angebot zu nehmen, scheiterten."
All attempts by S. Fischer Publishing to convince Gutenberg.org to remove these texts from their offerings without involving a court, failed. [translation mine] |
03-07-2018, 12:11 AM | #73 | ||
Fanatic
Posts: 514
Karma: 2954711
Join Date: May 2006
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-07-2018, 01:27 AM | #74 | |
Wizard
Posts: 4,742
Karma: 246906703
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Device: Oasis 3, Oasis 2, PW3, PW1, KT
|
Quote:
The ban of the original is now a criminal offense rather than a mere copyright violation, far as I understand, since copyright expired. ETA: to clarify, the ban is on printing and publishing only, it was never illegal to own, sell, or buy an original. ETA2: Never illegal is probably a too strong word. It is likely that in East Germany it may have been illegal, but I have no recollection of the laws back then, I was too young. Last edited by DuckieTigger; 03-07-2018 at 01:48 AM. |
|
03-07-2018, 03:07 AM | #75 | |
creator of calibre
Posts: 43,854
Karma: 22666666
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mumbai, India
Device: Various
|
Quote:
The last example in particular is highly relevant to the case in hand. Gutenberg will argue that they are not selling/making available their books to citizens of Germany, Holtzbrink will argue they are. And the case will be decided by whether the higher court agrees with PG or the publisher. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
gutenberg.org blockt deutsche IP-Adressen | doubleshuffle | Deutsches Forum | 14 | 11-05-2021 04:48 AM |
Gutenberg.org : "Read this book online" feature broken? | swamp thing | General Discussions | 9 | 06-05-2014 10:03 PM |
Add german Gutenberg Projekt as dealer? | cremofix | Library Management | 0 | 12-19-2011 04:31 AM |
Kindle v.2 Problems with MOBI TOC from Gutenberg.org | Sonist | Amazon Kindle | 2 | 06-15-2009 04:34 PM |
gutenberg.com is not gutenberg.org | ProDigit | News | 2 | 11-21-2008 12:39 PM |