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Old Yesterday, 11:11 AM   #121
Catlady
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Originally Posted by Bookpossum View Post
Catlady, I have just had a hugely entertaining afternoon watching those videos of the trial that you found - thank you! The very best part was watching historian David Starkey, whom I have seen in more recent years pontificating about the Tudors on TV, being quite astoundingly rude and arrogant towards the lawyer for the defence.

The lawyer's handling of him, incredibly polite but getting his name wrong, and then at the end calling him Mr Starkey and being corrected that it was Dr Starkey, was a delight to watch.

It comes in the third section for anyone who wants to have a look. Highly recommended!
Glad you enjoyed the trial. I haven't watched yet, but it sounds like I should.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Victoria View Post
Me too, and now I wonder if I’ve taken Tey all wrong? Making up your sources is a hanging offence in most contexts. But it’s perfectly legit in fiction. Maybe she just thought it would be fun topic for an novel, and was pretty casual about the research. She could be looking down highly amused to see people treat the novel like an academic paper.
I made a cursory look for Rose of Raby also and thought it might be this book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...storical-novel

But I admit I didn't look into it! It was originally published in the late 18th century, so the language probably wouldn't have been the same as what appeared in the lengthy Tey quotes.
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Old Yesterday, 11:32 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Spoiler:

Elizabeth of York (Elizabeth Woodville's daughter) is seen to fall in love with Richard III and the two plan to marry (apparently there really were rumours to this effect at the time), and at the same time Henry Tudor is declaring he will marry her when he takes the throne - as agreed in private between Elizabeth Woodville and Margaret Beaufort. (I guess royalty and incest go together to some extent, but Richard and his niece? Can the niece really overlook Richard usurping the crown from her brother? I'm having some trouble with that ... but "the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there" - thank you, L.P. Hartley.)
I don't think the information about Elizabeth of York is particularly spoilery, but I'll follow your lead:

Spoiler:
Weir devotes a chapter to Elizabeth's liaison with Richard III.
Quote:
By the end of 1484 it was clear that Queen Anne was a sick woman, unlikely to have any more children, and probably not long for this world. Elizabeth Wydville, following her usual pragmatic instincts, and having now abandoned her hopes of Henry Tudor, saw some advantage for her daughter and herself in this situation, for if Anne died, as seemed likely, the King would be expected to marry again in the hope of providing for the succession. In such circumstances, who better to mate with him than the Lady Elizabeth, regarded by many as the rightful heiress of the House of York? Marriage to her would place Richard III in an unassailable position: as husband of the woman many people regarded as the lawful Queen of England he would enjoy the unchallenged right to wear the crown. Elizabeth would be accorded her rightful rank and dignity and, even more to the point, Elizabeth Wydville could expect to be restored to power and influence as the mother of the Queen Regnant.
Weir says the relationship between Richard and Lady Elizabeth was both pragmatic and passionate. She also says:
Quote:
The King’s determination to marry his niece is virtual proof, if any were needed, that the precontract story on which his title was based was pure invention. Had it been true, Richard would not now have been contemplating the marriage to strengthen his position. His pursuit of Elizabeth was not only a tacit acknowledgement of the widespread recognition of her as the rightful queen, but also amounted to confirmation that the Princes were dead. Marriage to her would crush Henry Tudor’s pretensions once and for all, and it would hopefully silence the ever-present rumours about her brothers. It would stabilise Richard’s tenure of the throne, enlist the Wydvilles on the side of the Crown, and in every way make sound political sense.
Quote:
The fact that she [Elizabeth of York] could contemplate such a marriage shows her to have been as much of a pragmatist as her mother and confirms that her ambition to wear a crown was greater than her grief for brothers who might never have been close to her.
When the marriage to Richard didn't happen, Elizabeth turned against him and back to Henry Tudor, and finally got the crown she wanted.
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Old Yesterday, 11:38 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
I made a cursory look for Rose of Raby also and thought it might be this book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...storical-novel

But I admit I didn't look into it! It was originally published in the late 18th century, so the language probably wouldn't have been the same as what appeared in the lengthy Tey quotes.
I found a pdf at Internet Archive.

P.S. Wikipedia's article on Cecily Neville includes this line:

Quote:
An imaginary novel about Cecily entitled The Rose of Raby is discussed in Josephine Tey's 1951 novel The Daughter of Time.
So it seems that there's no actual connection to the one at Goodreads and IA.

Last edited by Catlady; Yesterday at 11:42 AM. Reason: P.S.
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Old Yesterday, 11:51 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
I don't think the information about Elizabeth of York is particularly spoilery, but I'll follow your lead:
Thanks very much for that. I had not before come across anything about a relationship between Richard III and Elizabeth of York (or don't remember doing so), so I had included it in spoilers mainly because I thought it might be Gregory's imagination stretching rumour into tantalising story (as with some of the other elements I had in spoilers).

Given what you posted from Weir, confirming it wasn't just imaginings, I'm happy for this part to come out of spoilers. In particular I am fascinated by what Weir says about this relationship seeming to confirm that precontract evidence was a fiction. This family was a fickle bunch.
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Old Yesterday, 03:00 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Thanks very much for that. I had not before come across anything about a relationship between Richard III and Elizabeth of York (or don't remember doing so), so I had included it in spoilers mainly because I thought it might be Gregory's imagination stretching rumour into tantalising story (as with some of the other elements I had in spoilers).

Given what you posted from Weir, confirming it wasn't just imaginings, I'm happy for this part to come out of spoilers. In particular I am fascinated by what Weir says about this relationship seeming to confirm that precontract evidence was a fiction. This family was a fickle bunch.
Yes, that's the trouble with historical fiction. I appreciate it when an author adds a note at the end explaining what adheres to known facts and what is speculation or fudging--wish they all did so.

I think the Woodvilles weren't fickle as much as they were single-minded. They wanted the crown, and did whatever they had to do to get it, regardless of the cost. The princes were so much collateral damage.
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Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Ah, the joke's on us, perhaps. It is one reason why I'm not a big fan of fictionalised stuff like this - and like the Philippa Gregory book I'm reading now - unless you're an expert in the field you don't know where the author parted ways with reality.
Hilary Mantel’s “Wolf Hall” is often criticised in academic circles for the same reason. It’s a fictionalised account of the life of Thomas Cromwell, but the reading public takes it to be “history”, which it isn’t.
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Old Yesterday, 06:25 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by issybird View Post
I made a cursory look for Rose of Raby also and thought it might be this book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...storical-novel

But I admit I didn't look into it! It was originally published in the late 18th century, so the language probably wouldn't have been the same as what appeared in the lengthy Tey quotes.
Tey gives the author as the non-existent Evelyn Payne-Ellis, so not that one. Nice try issybird!
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Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM   #129
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Goodreads has reminded me that many years ago I read a fiction book which told the story from the Woodville family's perspective. It was written in a format that alternates between present and past (Una is the modern made-up character). I don't remember much about this book and apparently I gave it two stars, but here's the info anyway.

From Goodreads A Secret Alchemy by Emma Darwin:
Quote:
The cruel fate of the Princes in the Tower is one of the most fascinating—and most troubling—of all England's historical murder mysteries. But what was the truth behind the deaths of the young Edward V and his brother, Dickon, taken from their mother, Elizabeth Woodville, King Edward IV's beautiful widow, and their guardian, Anthony Woodville? And what about the man who would become King Richard III?

In a brilliant feat of historical daring, the acclaimed author of The Mathematics of Love reimagines the tragedy of the youngest victims of the Wars of the Roses. Through the voices of Elizabeth, Anthony, and Una—a historian who herself knows grief, betrayal, and secret love—Emma Darwin re-creates the lethal power struggles into which the boys were born, their heart-wrenching imprisonment, and the ultimate betrayal of their innocence.

Last edited by Bookworm_Girl; Yesterday at 06:38 PM.
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