Brandon Sanderson vs Audible

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Almost no indie author (statistically) makes even half a minimum wage on KU (KDP Select) and they'd sell more books not being Amazon only...

Says you. Other indie authors say different. Either all of those indie authors are idiots, or you are incorrect.

While I am sure some indie authors would sell more by avoiding Amazon exclusivity, not every one of them is just too clueless to know what works best for them.

[DuskyRose]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Almost no indie author (statistically) makes even half a minimum wage on KU (KDP Select) and they'd sell more books not being Amazon only (at no extra outlay). Also KU gives less income than regular book sales on Amazon. It's a scam to benefit Amazon.

Disney animators get paid enough to live on.

Disney animators are salaried employees. They work at Disney's orders, and their work product belongs to Disney.

Indie authors are producing their own product, on their own terms, and Amazon is just one of the bigger stores they can stock their stuff into for customers to find. They're also responsible for any formatting, editing, cover... It's their own stuff they're trying to sell.

Comparing apples to organges.

As to indie authors making money on KU, I think some do very well, and some don't. <shrugs> I've seen authors talk about it lovingingly, and some hatefully.

Mostly, the authors I've seen complaining (and know talk of their work) are the ones who aren't very good at what they do. There's a LOT of really bad writing in KU to start with, and I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that a lot of readers bail out of a lot of KU books early. Cover can be great, summary interesting, and a few pages in the reader realizes it's a waste of time.

I've found some good stuff on KU, when I had it. Mostly first books in an established series, where the author was charging 99 cents just to get the reader (hopefully) on a roll. But I dumped a lot more books than I fell in love with. They were just crap.

So, I think KU is an iffy thing, and a lot depends on the author's skill.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DuskyRose

Disney animators are salaried employees. They work at Disney's orders, and their work product belongs to Disney.

Indie authors are producing their own product, on their own terms, and Amazon is just one of the bigger stores they can stock their stuff into for customers to find. They're also responsible for any formatting, editing, cover... It's their own stuff they're trying to sell.

Comparing apples to organges.

Absolutely. I was only comparing income because someone else mentioned it.

Originally Posted by DuskyRose

As to indie authors making money on KU, I think some do very well, and some don't.

A tiny fraction of full time authors make as much as about $8,000 p.a.

Almost no authors, indie or signed to publishers, Amazon KU or not, do well. But any on KU would do better by just using KDP, not KDP Select and being on the other platforms. Cost them less than 1 hour per book, ever, to add Kobo, Apple, Barnes&Noble, Scribd etc (all via Smashwords) and separately Google PlayStore Books. Four extra uploads (cover & epub twice, optionally one dual Mobi on Smashwords), Almost same metadata form.
Increase income by 20% to 50% and give consumers more choice. KU advantage via KDP select is a lie in respect of indie authors.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DuskyRose

So, I think KU is an iffy thing, and a lot depends on the author's skill.

This is exactly why I have not used KU as Amazon probably intends. I have subscribed to KU many times - always when on sale or as a freebie with a Kindle or Fire tablet purchase. In all the times I've subscribed to KU, I can count on one hand the number of books I have read. Instead, I use KU as an "extended sample" of books. I will read enough to determine that I like a book, then I will mark it on my "to be purchased" list and return it and get a new KU book to sample.

Because I always leave my Kindle in airplane mode to prevent firmware updates (and other things), I always got my KU "samples" via Download and Transfer. Now that Amazon has blocked that, I have no use for KU, even if on sale or as a freebie. Additionally, the "to be purchased" list I have built up over the years may well become useless as well - if Amazon follows up as we all anticipate, and eventually doesn't allow Download and Transfer for purchased books.

While I don't like what Amazon is doing, it's really only a minor problem. The vast number of KU books I have sampled do not make it onto my "to be purchased list". And less than 1/3 of books on this list actually end up being purchased (as I later reevaluate my reasons for putting them on the list, or I decide I want other books more).

I can understand why Amazon might want to disable the Download and Transfer for KU books. It bumps me out of using KU personally because of my airplane mode mandate, but I understand why they might want to do it (to prevent piracy of "loans"). However, I cannot agree with any reason that Amazon may spout for disabling Download and Transfer from purchased books. So far they are only doing this for books published in 2023 and beyond, but we all know that is just a diversion to soften up customers for the blow that is coming - disabling it for all ebook purchases. At that point, not only will KU be useless to me, but so will Amazon ebook purchases.

[DiapDealer]

Saying KU is bad for indie authors is like saying ice cream is bad for cones. Good authors stand a much better chance of being seen with it than without. So do bad ones for that matter. The vast majority of authors (whether self- or trad-published) are not going to earn a living on their writing alone. Same as it ever was.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Saying KU is bad for indie authors is like saying ice cream is bad for cones. Good authors stand a much better chance of being seen with it than without. So do bad ones for that matter. The vast majority of authors (whether self- or trad-published) are not going to earn a living on their writing alone. Same as it ever was.

Proven untrue about KU (KDP Select vs KDP). Without KU (KDP Select) they are still on Amazon (and more income per customer because only real sales), but with minimal once off effort and no extra money cost, they can increase sales via Apple, Kobo, Smashwords, Barnes & Noble etc. I admit that Google sales are pathetic, but it's a free listing.

Amazon makes far more from KU than regular Kindle, because they get the 100% of subscription on the months when the consumer takes nothing. Real Libraries pay more for a copy to loan, Amazon pays zero for right to loan even on regular KDP at higher payment rates. In UK & Ireland the libraries also pay a per loaned out royalty of about 40c. Amazon often pays less than this under KU.

Heavy readers get some advantage from KU, but the real winner is Amazon. Authors are better using regular KDP and regular Kindle sales and then not exclusive, for free being everywhere else.

So analogy of cone & ice-cream is totally false.

[DiapDealer]

You'll forgive me if I find it a little difficult to believe that every single one of the indie authors in KU are gullible fools. That none could see the truth that you have been able to figure out. Not everyone is incompetent in their chosen field. So there's either a valuable benefit to be had for indie authors in KU, or all indie authors in KU are stupid. Which is is it?

[Quoth]

Competant at writing or even being a genius doesn't ensure people can see past corporate propaganda or that they are any good at marketing.

Some are not good writers.

Some countries have consumer protection laws because ordinary people, not fools, are easily scammed by the unscrupulous seller.

In one English county the crime rate fell by 30% when door to door direct selling was banned.

Amazon is extremely expert at marketing.

[DiapDealer]

You're not answering the question. Are they all being hoodwinked? Every last one of them (indie authors in KU)? Or are they finding value in something you're dismissing as worthless? It has to be one or the other. Either you know better than every single indie author in KU or you don't

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

You're not answering the question. Are they all being hoodwinked?

I would guess that they are not being "hoodwinked". They know what they are getting into, assuming they can and do read the agreement they are accepting.

I would propose that at least some of them are making a conscious decision that some income is better than no income (or significantly lower income). The way they get "some income" may not be to their liking, and they may feel abused by the deal they are accepting, but they choose some over none anyway. Their rationale may vary, but I'll bet at least part of it is gaining exposure. Much the same as many manufacturers cutting corners and cheapening their products so they can get them on the shelves of Walmart, for the large exposure that brings.

Others may have determined that they will get higher profits being exclusive to Amazon than by having a wider distribution network. Maybe because they don't (or can't) put in the effort to advertise their own stuff and get their name out there. So Amazon does that advertising for them. At a price, of course.

But I doubt that ANY author actually DESIRES an exclusivity contract with Amazon. It may be something they put up with and accept for other reasons, but one of those reasons is probably not because they actually DESIRE it. Can you think of anything that is desirable about an exclusivity contract with Amazon, except from Amazon's point of view?

[DiapDealer]

I have no interest in a conversation about exclusivity. I was only interested n Quoth's assertion that KU is merely a marketing gimmick. That indie author's will make more money without it. That KU is bad for indie authors.

There are clearly advantages to be had by indie authors joining KU. Some of them you pointed out yourself. So the answer to my question is obviously, 'no.' Not all indie authors in KU are stupid (or are being hoodwinked by marketing). There's value in KU for indie authors that Quoth is unable--or unwilling--to acknowledge.

The only thing I will say about the exclusivity requirement is that it's not forever. Clearly some are willing to temporarily trade the exclusivity period for the exposure to be gained. Business is compromise.

[DuskyRose]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Heavy readers get some advantage from KU, but the real winner is Amazon. Authors are better using regular KDP and regular Kindle sales and then not exclusive, for free being everywhere else.

I think that it does play out for many indie writers. I know that being on KU can get a book noticed and read, where before it wouldn't have sold at a 99 cents. Because they weren't selling at all, and the authors didn't want them to go free.

I bypass a lot of books for cheap, and when I got KU tried them out then. Wasn't going to pay for a book that threw up a lot of red flags. Which is why I put them on my KU list, and when I did join KU I had a list to start with.

I burned through a lot I was *glad* I didn't buy. They wouldn't even have been worth getting for free.

I think a lot of indie authors have fantasies that they are a lot better authors than they really are, and don't want to give them away for free.They go for KU as a way to get more eyes, and for people to take a chance on their work, without having to actually give them away.

So, I do think a lot of them can come out ahead on KU, because it's the only attention they're going to get, and they actually might get some good reviews out of it, where they'd have been ignored otherwise.

[Quoth]

If I was devious I'd promote KU (i.e. Authors using KDP Select instead of KDP) so as to have less competition on Apple, Kobo, Barnes&Nobel etc.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Quoth

If I was devious I'd promote KU (i.e. Authors using KDP Select instead of KDP) so as to have less competition on Apple, Kobo, Barnes&Nobel etc.

Perhaps you are actually selling only through KU and you are looking to reduce competition there.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Perhaps you are actually selling only through KU and you are looking to reduce competition there.