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Old 11-18-2019, 08:28 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Why is it others are allowed to say a pBook is a real book and yet I'm not allowed to as an eBook is a read book?
Because:

Quote:
This entire thread was started on the premise the pBooks are real
The premise is correct, real obviously meaning in this case "physical."

Quote:
meaning that eBooks are not real.
False conclusion, as you are conflating two different meanings of the word "real." Real can mean "true," but it also means "actual" or "physical." The second meaning applies here and the opposite is virtual, as in ebook.

And this is the last word on the subject here. You can PM me if you want to discuss this further, but it would be good for you to drop this particular dead horse in the forums.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:18 AM   #47
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This is very interesting, because since 'book' indicates the medium, not the content, and to refer to the latter through such word is a metonymy, it follows that 'eBook' indicates the tablet, the display, not the product of a writer. "Buying an eBook" literally means, buying the hardware.
I would not say ebook to my physical ebook reader. It generally just gets referred to as book. When I ask my wife, or the other way around, where my book is, she automatically knows that the Kindle is meant. But then, the word book means both, content and medium. Or rather content and physical object containing the medium. Have you seen my book? Yeah, you left it on the headboard. Which book are you reading? Right now I am reading Die Obstdiebin.

It is so much easier now with ebooks that there is a clear distinction. If I want to read, it is usually a bad idea to pick up my wife's book, since it won't have my books on it. Plus, I don't have to share my book, because she can have a copy of the same book on her book.
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:16 AM   #48
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You might have a better argument in challenging the word "own" as opposed to "book". I have paper books and ebooks but I only "own" the paper books.
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
No...this entire thread was in the premise of.....it’s been a a long time since I went and bought a book at a book store. It was ZERO PERCENT about whether paper books were more real than ebooks.

I like ebooks so much...prefer them over paper books so much....that it had been years since I had stepped into a book store. THUS the post.
But that's not how the topic reads. It reads as though you think a pBook is a book and not an eBook. The topic shout have read that you bought a pBook or however. You want to call it. So unless the topic is changed, that how it will be read even if that was not your intention.

Book refers to the content and not the medium. When we use words, we need to make sure we get the meaning correct. When you say you actually bought a book and refer to a pBook, that gets taken as pBook = book.

If someone pointed out my mistake, I would be asking for the topic to be change to match my meaning.

Last edited by JSWolf; 11-18-2019 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:02 AM   #50
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That's just what YOU read into the topic. Which one is real wasn't even in my mind as I believe both are real.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:06 AM   #51
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As to me, I prefer both, ebook and paper book, but indeed my kindle has so many advantages... everybody has his own taste what is normal
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:19 AM   #52
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To get somewhat back on topic...

I do sometimes go into a bookstore and browse to see if anything might interest me. It's been a long time since I've bought a pBook. I did win an ARC pBook from Goodreads last year sometime.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:02 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Bookshops - the really good ones - are a source of wonder to me, something that started in childhood and that I've never outgrown. Intellectually I know they are simply a store in which you can buy books, but for me the best carry an atmosphere, an air of mystery, all their own and so each visit becomes an adventure, an exploration in which treasures may be uncovered.
That's exactly how I felt, except for me it didn't have to be a really good shop. Every book store from the little box in the mall to Powell's Acres of Books in Long Beach had that same magic.

It's still true, except:

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I do sometimes go into a bookstore and browse to see if anything might interest me. It's been a long time since I've bought a pBook.
This is also true.

Now when I go into a book store, I have the thought that I'm not going to buy anything. So then, after a short time browsing, I'm ready to go.

A lot of that book store magic has been replaced (to me) by browsing through Amazon, the deals threads here and even the daily emails I get from BookBub and Early Bird Books.

Others have said how they miss the 'happy accident' of stumbling on books in a store they likely wouldn't have sought out otherwise. A lot of that has been replicated for me online.

The one thing that is missing is the atmosphere in a book store. But as nostalgic as I am for it, I obviously don't value it enough or I'd be spending more time at my local B&N.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:05 PM   #54
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You guys are echoing my theme. I have no use for book stores...really...but it was NICE going back into one. I feel comfortable in a book store, I do not feel comfortable at a gym or a bar.

I like browsing books. I wouldn't mind having a chair and skimming some books to see if I'd want to read them. Of course, if I did that, and I wanted to buy the book, I'd buy it. I'm not much in favor of "show rooming".

But - will my nostalgia for book stores bring me back to regularly going to a book store? No. I read FAR more now that I'm reading ebooks. I have zero problems finding more books that I want to read but won't have time to read. And the "experience of reading" is just so much better on a device than a paper book....IMHO.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:11 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by DuckieTigger View Post
But then, the word book means both, content and medium. Or rather content and physical object containing the medium
Yes, within the framework that an important final value of the book is its specific content. But really not all of the value: an important value intrinsic in "book" is the technical one - the ability to have them books (to finally produce them).
But the term 'book' is supposed to indicate "an object containing /some/ content", not just a separate content.

You are either using 'medium' in a sense different from mine, or I may understand that with 'ebook' you mean the file.
An ebook is a medium which may contain etexts.
I feel that to include the electronic file as a medium is borderline (and a very high abstraction of the "book", there where the quota leaves you with little air), for a few reasons such as that with a file (an "efile", oh my) even the creation of the medium is pretty abstract. Not to mention its aspect, the ability to visualize it. I have not thought about it thoroughly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieTigger View Post
It is so much easier now with ebooks that there is a clear distinction. If I want to read, it is usually a bad idea to pick up my wife's book, since it won't have my books on it. Plus, I don't have to share my book, because she can have a copy of the same book on her book.
There you clearly mean the "file". I would rather say that «she can have a copy of the same text on her book»...


Sorry Leebase, a very good one was raised, with this terminological investigation - checking brought me surprises.


EDIT:

The confusion between medium and content in the use of 'book' comes from the fact that supports based in the vegetal realm had unchangeable content - "that book" meant "that text", and when somebody "wrote a book" they did actually produce a heap of "material", literally (curiously enough, more strongly than in painting - canvas were more easily reused). To refer to some book meant some specific text. But this is exactly what has changed with electronic support. After ebooks, the correlation between a support instance and specific text has vanished. This is why to confuse medium and content nowadays using the term 'book' is a superstition - times have changed but consolidated relations of ideas, no more valid, are sticky.

Last edited by mdp; 11-24-2019 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:29 AM   #56
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Book refers to the content and not the medium
I would say, certainly not. Surely in some clan, in some family, in some private communication code of some even numerous in millions people, there may be a convention as you wrote, as terms can be used (*used*) to mean anything.

In the indoeuropean tradition, the term 'book' was apparently created to indicate the product of beech, of selected bark ('bark' being "*white* rind"); 'liber' is peeled rind; 'byblos' is imported papyrus. Medium.

Content can be called, at least, 'text'.

There is a difference between how terms are used and what they are meant to mean. Not to get lost in the language, you have to keep the meaning close, and keep the metaphors checked under the former. (There is a difference between rethoric used with awareness and unaware "mutational, genetic" - largely implying random - use of the language.)


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When we use words, we need to make sure we get the meaning correct
That is exactly what I have done.

Last edited by mdp; 11-24-2019 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:35 AM   #57
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A lot of that book store magic has been replaced (to me) by browsing
But how can you check a whole collection on online lists? Also, in the online shop you mention I know you cannot browse inside the whole text.

In the bookstore I rely on, I can check all that was published by single publishers in single series - the latest publications and the history of the specific editorial effort. There in front of me, from #1 to #789, with some gaps. Online?

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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
I feel comfortable in a book store, I do not feel comfortable at a gym or a bar
You, sir, have taste I commend.

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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
I have zero problems finding more books that I want to read but won't have time to read
But, also see my reply to ZodWallop on top, given that of course your effort is economical, you have limited time but so much to experience, welcome - what about having a proper idea of what you are offered, for taking your choices and priorities? In economical and procedural terms, "explore/exploit". You may want to see tentatively all that is available, have a way to do that. (And also, as written, to check the book completely.)
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Old 11-24-2019, 12:14 PM   #58
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Quote:
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But how can you check a whole collection on online lists?

In the bookstore I rely on, I can check all that was published by single publishers in single series - the latest publications and the history of the specific editorial effort. There in front of me, from #1 to #789, with some gaps. Online?
I have to be honest here: I don't understand at all what you are saying.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:04 PM   #59
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I have to be honest here: I don't understand at all what you are saying.
No prob ; ) I thought I could add some examples. Also because, bookstores as I intend them are VERY hard to find.

In a bookstore "worth that name", I will visit a spot and I will find (depending on the Country):
-- Publisher: Odile Jacob. Series: Poches, Sciences. Volumes: #1 to volume #345, latest published (understandably with some gaps, depending on sales, availability etc.)
-- Publisher: Einaudi. Series: Nuova Universale. Volumes: #1 to #369
-- Publisher: Debolsillo. Series: Contemporanea. Volumes: #1 to #248
-- Publisher: Diogenes. Series: De.Te.Be. Volumes: #1 to #567
(I find it strange, but anglophone publications hardly seem to have "Series".)

For example:
Gallimard, Folio, #1000 happens to be Les fleurs bleues from Queneau;
Alleanza Editorial, Biblioteca Borges, #1 happens to be El Aleph.

A "series" corresponds to an editorial effort of a publisher - to publish the worthiest material in the spirit of the said series.
So, when you visit the "bookstore worth that name", you can check all that the publishing editors considered worth publishing in that collection they cured (competition aside - all that they considered worth publishing in some of their collections and managed to contractually bind before some other publisher got the rights). You can check because you will have all or most of the volumes at hand for every series, for every publisher (within reasonable constraints). You will have in front of you what was published in the past in that series and what was published lately.

This allows you to check "within a totality". What is available (all is available) is there in front of you: check, taste, browse, sieve. I am not sure online instruments can give you that. I am not even sure a service exists to browse that way. (EDIT: I mean, I have just downloaded a catalogue from a publisher, and today even an official catalogue can reveal to be an unkempt mess... Good luck with online services.)

EDIT:
I will put it again in different terms for further clarity.
Most libraries I know organize their collection in the corridors and shelves through the Dewey classification system (or similar).
Poor bookstores I meet organize their selection topically: on that wall cooking, on that travel, on that narrative etc.
The best bookstores I have known organize their collection through either "publisher, then series, then number (or alphabetically, depending)" or "topic, then publisher, then series, then number". And they strive towards the completeness of their collection. You visit them to see what is available.
To determine the titles within a series, a group of intellectuals has worked for you trying to discover the most worthy works available - that is already a great benefit. Having all them titles in front of you informs you well on what are your options.
I do not know of an electronic equivalent of this "normal practice" (for those who have the luck of knowing the right places).

Last edited by mdp; 11-24-2019 at 05:12 PM. Reason: When will I learn to type
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:55 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by mdp View Post
No prob ; ) I thought I could add some examples. Also because, bookstores as I intend them are VERY hard to find.

In a bookstore "worth that name", I will visit a spot and I will find (depending on the Country):
-- Publisher: Odile Jacob. Series: Poches, Sciences. Volumes: #1 to volume #345, latest published (understandably with some gaps, depending on sales, availability etc.)
-- Publisher: Einaudi. Series: Nuova Universale. Volumes: #1 to #369
-- Publisher: Debolsillo. Series: Contemporanea. Volumes: #1 to #248
-- Publisher: Diogenes. Series: De.Te.Be. Volumes: #1 to #567
(I find it strange, but anglophone publications hardly seem to have "Series".)

For example:
Gallimard, Folio, #1000 happens to be Les fleurs bleues from Queneau;
Alleanza Editorial, Biblioteca Borges, #1 happens to be El Aleph.

A "series" corresponds to an editorial effort of a publisher - to publish the worthiest material in the spirit of the said series.

This allows you to check "within a totality". What is available (all is available) is there in front of you: check, taste, browse, sieve.

The best bookstores I have known organize their collection through either "publisher, then series, then number (or alphabetically, depending)" or "topic, then publisher, then series, then number". And they strive towards the completeness of their collection.
Book publishing in your country (Spain?) must be very different than American bookstores. I have never seen a bookstore organized as you describe it and it feels like that would be a terrible browsing experience for me.

If I was in one of your stores and wanted to find Asimov's Foundation, first I would need to know who publishes it and what the series the publisher put it in.

Quote:
Poor bookstores I meet organize their selection topically: on that wall cooking, on that travel, on that narrative etc.
That is how every bookstore I have ever been in is organized. Including ones I visited in Japan, so it's not just the Yanks that do this.

In one of your 'poor' bookstores, if I wanted to find Asimov's Foundation, I would find Science Fiction and Asimov would be one of the first shelves in that section.

Last edited by ZodWallop; 11-24-2019 at 10:58 PM.
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