Scrivener - StoryMill - Storyist - WriteItNow 5

[Penforhire]

Maybe consider a cloud storage service (or add-on app) that will keep selected directories synced. Before Sugarsync stopped their free service level I was doing that. Programs like Scrivener get messed up in that arrangement because of all the tiny changes it writes (every few seconds idle). If YWriter and your others apps are not so... frenetic in its saves then perhaps it would work. The thought is to push the cloud sync work over to a 3rd party app rather than your writing app.

[Dr. Drib]

Hitch:

You might want to look at WriteItNow 5, which does have a timeline. It's available for both PCs and Mac.

Aeon Timeline is only available for the Mac.

StoryMill has a very, very limited timeline, which is not very functional or diverse, in my opinion.

If you have a PC, there are some timeline software programs available that are not available for the Mac, but I haven't tested them.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Hitch:

You might want to look at WriteItNow 5, which does have a timeline. It's available for both PCs and Mac.

Aeon Timeline is only available for the Mac.

StoryMill has a very, very limited timeline, which is not very functional or diverse, in my opinion.

If you have a PC, there are some timeline software programs available that are not available for the Mac, but I haven't tested them.

So, Question:

Does WIN5 do the timelining automatically, based on the scenes and characters in each? That's what YW does, and why I like it so much.

I do find that now that I've gotten deeper into my outlining (think more Ludlum-esque outlining than pantsing), I'm a bit frustrated with everything I have. When I work on my laptop, trying to flip back and forth between LSBXE/Word/YWriter is like....fuhgeddaboudit. I know that this is one of the reasons that many folks love LSBXE/Scrivener, because they have "everything" in one place--research, outlining tools, writing "part" (for lack of a better word), images, blabbety-blab, but honestly, for writing scenes, I find YWriter to be pretty damn good. And you *can* use it as an outlining tool, although I'm a bit spoiled with using either Word or (for this limited purpose) LSBXE, both of which of course use indentation for outlining, which to me is more helpful than YWriter's lack (for that). I mean--if someone is OCD (ahem, like someone typing this post) and needs to outline everything to death, using a (somewhat-more) visual method is helpful, in seeing things at a glance than YWriter's scene-structure layout.

@Penforhire:

I didn't explain my problem clearly. The Thinkpad Yoga tablet is "seen" as a tablet/phone, rather than a laptop, so I am forced to use the Dropbox "mobile" app. That means that the files are actually still in the cloud, on the server, and not really on the laptop. The relative dir structure isn't the same. The way that YW "works" is by launching the program, which then "views" or sees the scene files in a given relative position from the databases that store them. In Dropbox on the server, rather than synched on the actual device, it's not saved in the way that YW "needs" to see them, in order to work. (Sorry, that's long-winded, but...)

Thanks!
Hitch

[marovada]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I didn't explain my problem clearly. The Thinkpad Yoga tablet is "seen" as a tablet/phone, rather than a laptop, so I am forced to use the Dropbox "mobile" app. That means that the files are actually still in the cloud, on the server, and not really on the laptop. The relative dir structure isn't the same. The way that YW "works" is by launching the program, which then "views" or sees the scene files in a given relative position from the databases that store them. In Dropbox on the server, rather than synched on the actual device, it's not saved in the way that YW "needs" to see them, in order to work. (Sorry, that's long-winded, but...)

Use ywSynch for ywriter: http://babbacom.com/ywSynch/
On Android you can also use Dropsync to sync folders between cloud and device using Dropbox

[David Munch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Aeon Timeline is only available for the Mac.

Their website also says Windows XP or newer.

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by David Munch

Their website also says Windows XP or newer.

Then that's newly added software. (ADDED: Perhaps it was there all the time, but I was only aware of the Mac version, since I'm using a Macbook Pro.)

Thank you for the information on that.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by marovada

Use ywSynch for ywriter: http://babbacom.com/ywSynch/
On Android you can also use Dropsync to sync folders between cloud and device using Dropbox

THANKS!!

BTW, I broke down yesterday and installed Scrivener. I hate to move away from YWriter, I really do, but at some point in this whole, "it's time for me to take a few minutes a day and do something for myself, instead of just working 60-80 hours/week" thing, and this discussion, I realized that I'd just become entirely too disorganized. Having three (plus a very complete outline in Word) different programs--LSBXE, YW, and Snowflake Pro (plus Word for outlining), here and there and everywhere....it's just not adding to my productivity.

I thought about it a long while, and decided that worst case, I can slap my scenes into YW, and use the timelining feature there. (I have one story in particular that has flashbacks, etc., to a much earlier time period, and I need to make sure that I track everybody hither and yon.) Or, I'll look into Aeon, but what I like about YW is that I can drag-drop the scenes, if needed, and update the scene times, and kablammo, it does the heavy lifting for me. I also like some of Simon's other features that are hardly ever mentioned--ability to annotate a scene action/reaction, track objects used in scenes, etc. (Yes: I've taken the entire Scriv. tutorial, I know I can tag things, but...Simon's program is very thorough and complete. People simply don't "get" it because it's not FLASHY or "pretty" in the way that Scrivener or LSB are.)

I'm going to give Scrivener a go, but I'll miss the simple elegance of YW, if I end up sticking with Scrivener. (I admit, it does look like I can easily emulate the SP character-development process by using Scrivener "templates" for that.) I admit that one of the things that I have struggled with, as a "power-user" in Word, is that in YW, I missed the ability, in creating scenes for outlining, to use multi-tiered visual mechanisms (effectively, HTML headers, for all intents and purposes), to indicate things like Acts, Parts, Scenes, etc. If you're an OCD outliner like I am, having things organized in a way in which you can indicate "this is the disaster in Act II," visibly, is very helpful.

{shrug}, offered FWIW, for any others that come along and are thinking about all of this.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Update to my previous post:

So...I've spent a week or so working with Scrivener. After a lot of thought--and trust me, I hate to say this--I don't find that a) the blank-screen character "clips" (I forget what the Scrivener term is) really works for me, so I'm sticking with Snowflake Pro for that. And, while it's nice for outlining, I think I'll stick with YW5, all-in.

There are some things I like about Scrivener, but I still like YWriter, overall, for real serious writing. Scrivener's prettier. No two ways about it. But it lacks a BOATLOAD of the functionality and usability of YWriter. For example, YWriter automatically allows you to show goals and conflict (in a synopsis-like mechanism) for each scene, which you have no way of doing in Scrivener, unless you come up with some tagging mechanism. You can mark a scene as plot or subplot; as reaction or action (and based upon that, the characterization for each scene's conflict is altered as well--Goal, Conflict, Outcome if you mark it as an action scene; Reaction, Dilemma, Choice if you indicate that it's a reaction to the prior scene/event). As I previously mentioned, you can then identify which charcters are in the scene; what time the scene takes place, and the timelining is done for you automatically.

You can set your POV, and rate the scene individually, for humor, tension, quality and relevance. NONE of this is doable in Scrivener without a lot of tweaking and tagging and notes. Granted--a lot of pantsers will find this overly anal-retentive, and I wouldn't disagree, but it's a way of crafting that agrees with me.

What I do like about Scrivener is, if you're OCD like me, you can use almost-unlimited levels of outlining. This allows me to indicate story structure, inside of acts, more easily, visually. So that I can indicate that I'm in Act II, and I've reached the spot where X should start to occur, (for example, the big setback in Act II), and THEN outline from that point, at yet another level of indentation, with a chapter/scene. Using that level of detail helps me make sure I don't get lost in the story instead of keeping the plot moving along.

So...after all this back-forth, as much as I hate to add yet another level of stuff to what I'm doing, I'm going to finish my outline (I'm a big-time outliner; my outline takes forever to do, right up there with my character development and backstory) in Scrivener. It's visually easier. I think it's a really good outlining tool.

But then I'm going to put the entire outline into YWriter, and use that for the actual writing. There's simply no comparison between the two, if you write like I do. Yes, Scrivener has some nice features for research, like keeping images and the like; but in terms of the mechanics of writing, I really think that YWriter is simply superior. I wish I could get Simon to add the levels of indentation for visual purposes--with that alone, I'd chuck Scrivener. It's okay, and it obviously works for a lot of people, but it doesn't suit me for writing the final product.

Offered FWIW, for anyone else who might be a bit OCD, and is seeking the "best" writing product. So, now I have FIVE things (although fortunately, LSB is finally going the way of the dodo, as Scrivener basically does everything I was using LSB for, which is the more-extended, detailed outlining.) So, I'll end up with Snowflake Pro and Scrivener for the advance work, and YWriter for the actual writing. It's a lot of damn software, but...until someone comes up with something that has everything that Scrivener AND YWriter bring to the party, (I'd drool for something that combined all three), that seems to be the best option for me. Not for everyone, fersure, but for me, that's how I view it.

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

Hitch, you might enjoy WriteItNow 5. It's available for PC/Mac.

They have an unlimited test trial, but it will not save.

I'm going to change the title of this thread by adding this piece of software to the mix.

Here's the link:

http://www.ravensheadservices.com/

Let's discuss them all.

[Dr. Drib]

As long as you're mentioning Snowflake Pro, which is priced at $100

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.co...-pro-software/

I might as well include Writer's Blocks, which is priced at $149

http://www.writersblocks.com/

I haven't used either of these two programs, but they appear very interesting.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Hitch, you might enjoy WriteItNow 5. It's available for PC/Mac.

They have an unlimited test trial, but it will not save.

I'm going to change the title of this thread by adding this piece of software to the mix.

Here's the link:

http://www.ravensheadservices.com/

Let's discuss them all.

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

As long as you're mentioning Snowflake Pro, which is priced at $100

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.co...-pro-software/

I might as well include Writer's Blocks, which is priced at $149

http://www.writersblocks.com/

I haven't used either of these two programs, but they appear very interesting.

I do use SNP (Snowflake Pro). I find it extremely helpful in forcing me to really think about character development. When I do that, plot elements that I would have overlooked, or not even thought of, tend to fall into place. If you force yourself to step through it, it's surprising how much plot development you can find, without even "working" at it. Once you know your characters that well, writing them is easy. JMHO, and obviously, YMMV.

I looked at both of the programs you've mentioned, since you pointed me to them. Both look interesting. (I hope that one company's software is better than their damn website!!!).

I'll have to download both (Curse you, Dr. Drib!) and see if either will replace YWriter. I am hanging onto some of the things that I mentioned previously that are just GREAT, but I'm perfectly willing to try new things. I have some momentum on my current OIP (Outline in Progress), and I don't want to lose that, but I can continue outlining in Scivener while I test these. Anyone else here try any of these? And can speak to them? I don't mind the pricing. I'd certainly rather spend $149USD than waste an hour of my time trying to find that note I created about what's-er-name's husband, or try to remember whether that scene was supposed to go here or there. ;-)

Hitch

[gmw]

It's interesting to read your reactions to Scrivener, Hitch.

I was thoroughly impressed with the product, especially their interactive tutorial so you can really try it out properly and see how it's supposed to work. It's all so impressive that I'd really like to use it ... but I don't. I've tried a few times, but somehow I seem to spend more time mucking around, trying to get the tags and stuff all set up as I think I'll want, that I never actually get any writing done. I also think it's editor lets it down, RTF is not a good fit, they need something properly styles based. I haven't given up on the Scrivener yet, but so far it just hasn't worked for me.

I don't do detail outlines, so I come closer to the "pantser" side of the fence than you do. But OCD isn't biased, it manages to hit you whatever your style. (I have come to the conclusion that an obsessive nature is probably a prerequisite for writing). I make copious notes as I go: timeline details; setting and general background; great screeds of character history, from general details to scenes and dialogue. And because all this is developed and maintained as I write the main text, trying to make sure it all remains consistent is a lot of work. (I find having a separate place to get carried away writing background helps me to keep from trying to include it all in the main text - which saves me having to cut it all out again later.)

I did try yWriter a long while ago, but I found it sort of cramped and distracting for the actual writing part. Maybe I just needed to give it longer.

As a software developer I've had dreams of putting together my own solution, but I have enough trouble finding time to write as it is.


Dr Drib. Thanks for the links, even more things to spend time looking over ... just what I needed.

[Dr. Drib]

Mobileread member Robert Sawyer uses Writer's Blocks, and he even has an endorsement for that program on their website.

Perhaps he'll post in this thread about his further interaction with it, as well as offer some details on how he uses it to outline his novels.

I wish it wasn't so expensive.

[Dr. Drib]

I had yWriter on my PC, which my wife now uses.

I purchased a used MacBook Pro and a copy of XMware Fusion. I had an old copy of Windows 7, so I loaded everything up on my Mac. Everything works perfectly.

I then installed yWriter on my Mac. ---- I still can't seem to wrap my head around the software. For me, it seems so 'busy'. I do like the way one can add so many details to what one is working on, but (again) it just seems repetitive in the menus and the 'hidden' menus/commands, etc, which seem more numerous than Tribbles!

I also own WriteWay Pro, having purchased it about 3 years ago. It's a fine program, but I now use Scrivener instead of that program. I also installed WriteWay Pro on my Mac.

WriteWay Pro is only available for a PC - not for a Mac. But that's no problem if one runs a virtual system.

Here's a link to their website:

http://www.writewaypro.com/

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by gmw

It's interesting to read your reactions to Scrivener, Hitch.

I was thoroughly impressed with the product, especially their interactive tutorial so you can really try it out properly and see how it's supposed to work. It's all so impressive that I'd really like to use it ... but I don't. I've tried a few times, but somehow I seem to spend more time mucking around, trying to get the tags and stuff all set up as I think I'll want, that I never actually get any writing done. I also think it's editor lets it down, RTF is not a good fit, they need something properly styles based. I haven't given up on the Scrivener yet, but so far it just hasn't worked for me.

I don't do detail outlines, so I come closer to the "pantser" side of the fence than you do. But OCD isn't biased, it manages to hit you whatever your style. (I have come to the conclusion that an obsessive nature is probably a prerequisite for writing). I make copious notes as I go: timeline details; setting and general background; great screeds of character history, from general details to scenes and dialogue. And because all this is developed and maintained as I write the main text, trying to make sure it all remains consistent is a lot of work. (I find having a separate place to get carried away writing background helps me to keep from trying to include it all in the main text - which saves me having to cut it all out again later.)

I did try yWriter a long while ago, but I found it sort of cramped and distracting for the actual writing part. Maybe I just needed to give it longer.

As a software developer I've had dreams of putting together my own solution, but I have enough trouble finding time to write as it is.


Dr Drib. Thanks for the links, even more things to spend time looking over ... just what I needed.

Y'know, when it comes to Scrivener, as an outlining tool, I think it's fine. As I said, I like being able to use the multi-level outline, and use the cards. Honestly, it isn't anything I couldn't have done in Word, far more easily, TBH. I think if a writer/author doesn't know Word very well, what Scrivener does must seem like MAGIC. I've read lots of glowing reports about it, with most folks going ON AND ON AND ON about how you can drag-drop scenes/chapters, etc., around, which of course, they lifted right from Word's outline feature. I mean, they are literally identical.

The rest, pretty much--it's using a directory structure for folks whom, I guess, can't navigate their way around a filedir. I mean, really, you can't set up a folder/dir with a sub-folder that says "character sketches?" {shrug}. To me, it's mostly something like Word, matched with something a bit like OneNote/Evernote. What I DO like about it, however, is the ability to see the notes I make, for a given bit (the index card feature). For me, that's really important. It's pretty much the only reason I'm not using Word for this outlining--because I can make notes about each scene/segment/goal, and see them in the corkboard in Scrivener. The rest? To me, foofy s**t.

@DrDrib wrote:

Mobileread member Robert Sawyer uses Writer's Blocks, and he even has an endorsement for that program on their website.

Perhaps he'll post in this thread about his further interaction with it, as well as offer some details on how he uses it to outline his novels.

I wish it wasn't so expensive.

You know, when I looked at it, it didn't blow my skirt up. There's something about it I just didn't like. But I do plan to try it, if they offer a demo.

I was really offput by WriteItNow; not sure why. Maybe because it looks like it was written in 1997 and never updated, although I try really hard not to be influenced by foofy-stuff. (I mean, I'm a pretty diehard YW5 user, so...). I did download it, and it has a pretty old downloader that couldn't install where I wanted it to, which is weird.

And the Doc also said:

I then installed yWriter on my Mac. ---- I still can't seem to wrap my head around the software. For me, it seems so 'busy'. I do like the way one can add so many details to what one is working on, but (again) it just seems repetitive in the menus and the 'hidden' menus/commands, etc, which seem more numerous than Tribbles!

You might be confusing (no offense) the main menu items with the (repetitively-named) per-chapter/scene menu items. For example, the main menu has "Characters," by which you can create new; view existing; edit existing; show scenes per character; show word count per character (!), and generate reports (Print Character List, Print Scenes per character, print characters per Tag). In the actual chapters, there's another "Characters" menu item--which solely displays the characters IN THAT SCENE. Right above it is yet another characters menu item--but this is for all the characters in the chapter in which that scene takes place. You can, with a click, see how many POV scenes are in that chapter, and for which characters.

As I mentioned previously, YW5 is definitely for those of us who are goal-oriented and OCD about things like hitting certain beats or structure elements (like getting to X in Act II). What it does for me, particularly with the Scene details, is force me to decide "Yes, this is an action scene, and this is what happens," and not dither around with writing 2,000 words of "Amy did this and that and then thought about her navel-lint" kind of crap. I force myself to rate the scene (relevance, tension, humor, quality), so that I don't fool myself about what I'm doing. I love the time-lining. I have a WIP with two timelines (actually 3, but...) one "now," one 3 mos. ahead, and something that happened in the past. Trying to keep all that straight in something like Scrivener would be bloody hopeless.

I don't think that there's one "right tool." I think that everybody is different, and writes differently, and that's the way it works. For me, right now, I'm stuck on Snowflake Pro (really--it's awesome for character development, as dopey as it sounds), Scrivener for the main outline, and then when I have the final story structure (as "final" as it will get, before I really get writing) in place, I'll move it all over, lock, stock and barrel, to YW5. There really is only one thing (two) in YW5 that I wish I had, that it doesn't; the old-school outlining method, using indentation for visual cues, and an ability to use a few more levels, so that I can stick my own signposts in there. So that I could put a "level" beneath the Act, but above chapters, and still have chapters and scenes. To me, that would pretty much make YW5 perfect. Even then, if I were willing to work a bit harder, I could put them in there with appropriate names, and use the Scene List functionality--and see everything I need.

So...yes, like all of us, I'll keep looking, but so far, I'm not seeing ONE Ring to Rule them All. :-)

Hitch