Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by notimp

Consumers are educated now, that they will accept new fileformats in exchange for one or two new features ("Thanks product bloggers!") - that could as well have been implemented with azw3 - it wasnt a technical limitation, it was a marketing play - to increase lock in, to guide the conversation away from the broader changes this file format initiates.

I previously made this very obvious point re: kfx and it was met by a wall of denial from some users who instead argued that the new file format had been introduced to allow scalable images in books. Pretty silly really, especially coming from apparently intelligent people.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

AZW3 most definitely can be encrypted.

Doubtless, but AZW3 is NOT encrypted, and that is the point. KFX IS encrypted.

I didn't realize topaz was encrypted. It was never a popular format that I think has been dropped. But the fact it was encrypted does perhaps show that Amazon has been considering the encryption route for some time.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Rizla

Doubtless, but AZW3 is NOT encrypted, and that is the point. KFX IS encrypted.

I'm not sure what you intended to mean by 'encrypted', but it doesn't seem to be the usual meaning (i.e. changed by an encryption algorithm and secret key to be unreadable without the key).

Could you explain what you mean?

[knc1]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I'm not sure what you intended to mean by 'encrypted', but it doesn't seem to be the usual meaning (i.e. changed by an encryption algorithm and secret key to be unreadable without the key).

Could you explain what you mean?

I can't explain what the post you referenced means by: 'encrypted'.
Nor if that is just a confusion of terminology with DRM.

BUT

I can dispute the statement:

151027:144951 cvm[6016]: I CIIM_CloudIndexer:ADD_DOWNLOAD_FINISHED:cloudIndexerItem=CloudIndexerItem [asin=B00GCIN0OM_ bookSize=234822_ indexSize=64208_ timeoutDate=Tue Oct 27 14_51_46 GMT-05_00 2015_ shouldDownload=true_ downloading=true_ hasDownloaded=true_ downloadFailed=false]:
151027:144951 cvm[6016]: I CIIM_CloudIndexerToDoHandler:CLOUD_INDEXER_TRANSFER_DOWNLOAD_SUCCEEDED:asin=B00GCIN0OM,bytesTransferred=64208:
151027:144951 cvm[6016]: I CIIM_Lab126AESDecryptor:DECRYPTION_TIME_IN_MSECS:asin=B00GCIN0OM,decryptionMSecs=240:

Which is an azw3 book, and it is 'encrypted' (AES) by any sane meaning of the term.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I'm not sure what you intended to mean by 'encrypted', but it doesn't seem to be the usual meaning (i.e. changed by an encryption algorithm and secret key to be unreadable without the key).

Could you explain what you mean?

I mean the contents of a KFX are "garbled," unreadable, and so encrypted, in the sense that the meaning is deliberately concealed.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Rizla

I mean the contents of a KFX are "garbled," unreadable, and so encrypted, in the sense that the meaning is deliberately concealed.

As are KF8 books, as knc1 points out above. They use AES encryption.

[knc1]

Originally Posted by Rizla

I mean the contents of a KFX are "garbled," unreadable, and so encrypted, in the sense that the meaning is deliberately concealed.

I haven't seen any difference on that point between azw3 (kf-8) and kfx (kf-10).

Both are (or can be) delivered with AES encryption, see above.
(where the indexer has to decrypt it to index it.)

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by knc1

I haven't seen any difference on that point between azw3 (kf-8) and kfx (kf-10).

Both are (or can be) delivered with AES encryption, see above.
(where the indexer has to decrypt it to index it.)

So is AZW3 / KF8 generally encrypted (as opposed to encryptable)? I had assumed it was not encrypted as I recall no discussion of encryption of the format, and also no delay between its release and its ability to be converted via Calibre, unlike KFX.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Rizla

So is AZW3 / KF8 generally encrypted (as opposed to encryptable)? I had assumed it was not encrypted as I recall no discussion of encryption of the format, and also no delay between its release and its ability to be converted via Calibre, unlike KFX.

It believe it took quite a long time (well over a year, as I recall) between the release of KF8, and support for it being added to Calibre. Perhaps someone whose memory is better than mine can confirm that?

[eschwartz]

I don't know how long it took, but I am hardly surprised it took a while.


It's a new format, you think it got supported overnight?
And what does delay have to do with it? If an encryption was broken on the first day, that doesn't make it NOT an encryption.


I promise you this -- AZW3 required changes to calibre's codebase. There was definitely a delay, on those grounds alone.

[eschwartz]

What is the practical difference, except maybe in regard to efficiency, between a format defined by:

• encrypt with the password "1234"

and

• Apply gzip compression

In the former case, the decryption key itself is part of the file format spec.

...

Since it has been publicly verified that KFX books can be read on any Kindle -- just like AZW3 books can be read on any Kindle -- aren't we back to the same old "Oh my gosh, Amazon are jerks because they invented yet another non-standard format and now we have to reverse-engineer the format specs for this too" stage, just like we were when AZW3 rolled out?

With the added "bonus" that the new KFX might be even more obtuse than AZW3.


...

Now don't get me wrong. I still think KFX is incredibly annoying. But I am very cynical about doom and gloom prophecies.


P.S. Aren't we basically just rehashing the discussion from: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=263902

[pdurrant]

KF8 appeared in October 2011

Preliminary support for KF8 appeared in MobiUnpack in December 2011

KF8 support appeared in some version of 0.8 between April 2012 and September 2012.

It certainly wasn't instant!

[knc1]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

- - - -
It's a new format, you think it got supported overnight?
And what does delay have to do with it? If an encryption was broken on the first day, that doesn't make it NOT an encryption.
- - - -

It shouldn't require any 'breaking' -
The key required is on every Kindle, and Amazon posts the Kindle binaries for anyone to download. (Presuming that Amazon is still not putting the keys into the SoC secure key storage.)

(And we post a tool to take those package apart - KindleTool)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

KF8 appeared in October 2011

Preliminary support for KF8 appeared in MobiUnpack in December 2011

KF8 support appeared in some version of 0.8 between April 2011 and September 2012.

It certainly wasn't instant!

Do you mean "April 2012"? Clearly support for it couldn't be added before the actual format appeared in October 2011!

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

KF8 appeared in October 2011

Preliminary support for KF8 appeared in MobiUnpack in December 2011

KF8 support appeared in some version of 0.8 between April 2011 and September 2012.

It certainly wasn't instant!

So I see people were just as hot and bothered about KF8 as they are now about KFX.
Same doom and gloom.

P.S. That is April 2012, not April 2011.