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Old 08-11-2018, 11:41 PM   #1
ozh
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Hidden attribute not working properly in some devices

Hello guys!

I'm having a little trouble with the TOC (HTML) of my book... It's a valid (3.0.1) .epub file, which I converted to .mobi using kindlegen without warnings or errors.

The problem is the way my Front Matter section is renderized in some devices. I put a "hidden" attribute in the section (see code below), and I wanna it:
a) to appear in the Device TOC (the one you access via GO TO menu in the Paperwhite, for example), but NOT in the book itself.
b) to work as a jump point when using the arrows to jump to the previous/next section.

So, to sum up, the Front Matter section has all the navigational properties, but is hidden in the TOC in the beginning of the book.

But this is what happens after I copy the .mobi file to my devices, as a test:

1) Kindle Paperwhite, most recent version: everything is ok, the way I expected. The Front Matter section doesn't appears on the TOC of the book itself, but does appears in the GO TO menu with the collapsible arrow feature, and I can successfully jump between each part of it using the arrows ( |< and >| ) in the page flip screen.

2) Kindle 5th generation (Kindle 5, the one with the 5 buttons in the botton): the hidden part of the TOC DOES APPEARS inside the book. I don't know why, since i believe this model does have support for the HTML/EPUB3 features. Am I wrong?

3) Kindle app for Android: This one is very strange. Everything is fine, except the text header "Front Matter" appears 2 times, one inside of another! Like (the > represents a collapsible arrow):

> FRONT MATTER (all uppercase)
> Front Matter (The way is actually writed in the TOC)
Foo
Bar
Foo Bar
Bar Foo
TOC
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
... ... ...

This is the HTML code (just a excerpt)

Code:
<nav epub:type="toc" id="toc-nav">

<ol>

<li hidden="hidden"><span>Front Matter</span>
    <ol>
        <li><a href="foo.xhtml">foo</a></li>
        <li><a href="bar.xhtml">bar</a></li>
        <li><a href="foobar.xhtml">foo bar</a></li>
        <li><a href="barfoo.xhtml">bar foo</a></li>
        <li><a href="toc.xhtml">TOC</a></li>
    </ol>
</li>

<li><a href="c01.xhtml">Chapter 1</a></li>
<li><a href="c02.xhtml">Chapter 2</a></li>
<li><a href="c03.xhtml">Chapter 3</a></li>
...
...
...
What's going on?? Is there anyway of make this work the way it works on the Paperwhite in the others devices?

Tks a lot!
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:28 AM   #2
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What's a 3.0.1 epub?

And how are you converting epub to mobi? (I don't find it necessary to convert at all. I just take out the included cover image and upload the epub to the KDP.)

And this GO TO feature -- do you mean the logical or virtual TOC?

I fear that, overall, as with your rendering of renderize, you are stretching html beyond all reasonable limits. If there is such a word as renderize, there shouldn't be! Tenderize, yes, but not renderize.
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozh View Post
2) Kindle 5th generation (Kindle 5, the one with the 5 buttons in the botton): the hidden part of the TOC DOES APPEARS inside the book. I don't know why, since i believe this model does have support for the HTML/EPUB3 features. Am I wrong?
Kindle 5 models with the latest firmware should support KF8 (AZW3) files. However, AFAIK, they don't support KFX files.

IMHO, the easiest solution would be to simply add a class="hidden" attribute:

Code:
.hidden {
    display: none;
}
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Old 08-12-2018, 12:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
Kindle 5 models with the latest firmware should support KF8 (AZW3) files. However, AFAIK, they don't support KFX files.

IMHO, the easiest solution would be to simply add a class="hidden" attribute:

Code:
.hidden {
    display: none;
}
Or, stop taking the long way around, and use an ePUB 2, in which you could easily put the front matter you want on the GoTo in the Guide, and not in the HTML TOC. Seems a rather difficult way to get there from here, IMHO. (Also, Doits, IME, the Keyboard models seem to be a bit wonky in their KF8 support.)

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Old 08-12-2018, 01:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjohn View Post
What's a 3.0.1 epub?
http://idpf.org/epub/301

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjohn View Post
And how are you converting epub to mobi? (I don't find it necessary to convert at all. I just take out the included cover image and upload the epub to the KDP.)
I'm using kindlegen. I just wanna test on my devices before upload to KDP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjohn View Post
And this GO TO feature -- do you mean the logical or virtual TOC?
This is the GO TO menu on Paperwhite:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjohn View Post
I fear that, overall, as with your rendering of renderize, you are stretching html beyond all reasonable limits. If there is such a word as renderize, there shouldn't be! Tenderize, yes, but not renderize.
LOL, sorry about the "renderize", my english is really stupid. But I really don't think I'm "stretching html beyond all reasonable limits". It's just HTML. Here, from epub 3.0.1 specs:

Quote:
"The Navigation Document can also be reused in the body of an EPUB Publication by including it in the spine. To avoid the situation in highly structured documents where it might not be desirable to display the complete table of contents to Users in the body, the display level can be modified using the [HTML5] hidden attribute. This attribute is ignored by Reading Systems when they render the table of contents outside the spine (e.g., in their own specialized views), which avoids minimizing the information that is available."
Thanks for your reply!
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Old 08-12-2018, 01:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
Kindle 5 models with the latest firmware should support KF8 (AZW3) files. However, AFAIK, they don't support KFX files.

IMHO, the easiest solution would be to simply add a class="hidden" attribute:

Code:
.hidden {
    display: none;
}
Thanks for the infos, Doitsu. I'll try it.
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Or, stop taking the long way around, and use an ePUB 2, in which you could easily put the front matter you want on the GoTo in the Guide, and not in the HTML TOC. Seems a rather difficult way to get there from here, IMHO. (Also, Doits, IME, the Keyboard models seem to be a bit wonky in their KF8 support.)

Hitch
The problem is I'm using advanced CSS selectors and features and HTML5 markup, and I think epub 2 do not support them. I think I'm gonna use fallbacks to address older models, instead.

I think I can use the Landmark element to achieve the same result as the Guide, but I really don't know if it is rendered in the Go To menu or if it just works as "jump points". But I'll try it.

Thanks Hitch!
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozh View Post
http://idpf.org/epub/301


I'm using kindlegen. I just wanna test on my devices before upload to KDP.


This is the GO TO menu on Paperwhite:
See, here's the thing, which nobody wants to admit. NOBODY can tell you which of those was made with an NCX, or an HTML TOC. Seriously. Sometimes, the GoTo seems to be (correctly, IMHO) the NCX; sometimes, it's apparently made from the toc.html. I have found little or no rhyme or reason, as to which displays, from the GoTo, on a given book. I know that Notjohn frequently claims that his Fire displays the NCX--but I cannot say that with surety, at all. It seems just as likely to display the GoTo from a rendered (renderized! I actually like that word, and may steal it) toc.html as an NCX. The "old days" when you could be sure of such a thing--those are gone. Now, Amazon sort of "helps" everyone (god help me), by doing whatever they damn well please.

Quote:
LOL, sorry about the "renderize", my english is really stupid. But I really don't think I'm "stretching html beyond all reasonable limits". It's just HTML. Here, from epub 3.0.1 specs:
Your English is fine. NJ thought he was being funny. Don't apologize. While "renderize" is a bit of a stretch for English, we all knew what you meant, and it was fine.


Quote:
Thanks for your reply!
Ah, (Your next post) about HTML5. Just to sate my curiosity, do you mind sharing what HTML5 and advanced selectors you're using? We tend at my shop to stick largely with 2, for distribution purposes, of course, but I'm always interested in what 3 is being used for, AND how it translates, so to speak, to the Kindleverse.

Yes, you should be able to use the NAV, but you may not find that it works better than the Guide with the issues you're having now. I'd certainly try it, though.

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Old 08-12-2018, 05:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozh View Post
The problem is I'm using advanced CSS selectors and features and HTML5 markup, and I think epub 2 do not support them.
Note that KindleGen supports only a subset of the epub 3.0.1 standard. Make sure to only use selectors listed in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines.

For example, you can't use pseudo selectors.
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Old 08-12-2018, 06:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
See, here's the thing, which nobody wants to admit. NOBODY can tell you which of those was made with an NCX, or an HTML TOC. Seriously. Sometimes, the GoTo seems to be (correctly, IMHO) the NCX; sometimes, it's apparently made from the toc.html. I have found little or no rhyme or reason, as to which displays, from the GoTo, on a given book. I know that Notjohn frequently claims that his Fire displays the NCX--but I cannot say that with surety, at all. It seems just as likely to display the GoTo from a rendered (renderized! I actually like that word, and may steal it) toc.html as an NCX. The "old days" when you could be sure of such a thing--those are gone. Now, Amazon sort of "helps" everyone (god help me), by doing whatever they damn well please.

Your English is fine. NJ thought he was being funny. Don't apologize. While "renderize" is a bit of a stretch for English, we all knew what you meant, and it was fine.

Ah, (Your next post) about HTML5. Just to sate my curiosity, do you mind sharing what HTML5 and advanced selectors you're using? We tend at my shop to stick largely with 2, for distribution purposes, of course, but I'm always interested in what 3 is being used for, AND how it translates, so to speak, to the Kindleverse.

Yes, you should be able to use the NAV, but you may not find that it works better than the Guide with the issues you're having now. I'd certainly try it, though.

Hitch

Hey Hitch. On my epub, I have the toc.xhtml AND the toc.ncx (using the <spine toc="ncx">) as a fallback. They are identical, except for the html/xml markup, of course. But I was in doubt which one was being used too, so I did the following, as a test:

- Instead of "Chapter 1", I wrote "Chapter 1 HTML" in the toc.xhtml
- Instead of "Chapter 1", I wrote "Chapter 1 NCX" in the toc.ncx

, zipped as epub and converted it to mobi using kindlegen. So, in the end, the file rendered was the HTML one in all devices I tested (paperwhite and kindle app for android).

But I think this happens because I'm using epub 3 with the "nav epub:type" markup. This makes the same file (toc.xhtml) to work as the "in book" toc and as the logical (Go To) one. I think the ncx file would be used if the epub 2 were used instead.

From the book ePub3 Best Practices, from Matt Garrish and Markus Gylling (O'Reilly):
Quote:
"The NCX is how EPUB 2 specified navigation; it is superseded in EPUB 3 by the Navigation Document (nav, an XHTML document, as described in Chapter 2). In order to enable an EPUB 3 to be rendered by an EPUB 2 reading system, it has to include an NCX even though it also has to have a nav to conform to EPUB 3. Until EPUB 2 reading systems have become obsolete (no sign of that in the near future), publishers generally need to include both. The collision is prevented by the fact that the nav is pointed to by the manifest's nav property and the NCX is pointed to by the spine's toc attribute."
And YES!, Amazon is a weirdo. All the "Navigation Guidelines" section in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines is really frustrating.

About the HTML/CSS I'm using, to be honest, it's not really a big deal. I'm just more comfortable using the HTML5 markup, like section and nav, and I really like the additional structural semantics, so I'm using it from the beginning. All my content.opf file, too, is structured based in the epub 3 spec (no opf: namespace, no opf:scheme attribute, no opf:event, etc). Also, I think it's more well documented too, and I really like the already mentioned book ePub3 Best Practices.

I like to have some CSS3 features available to use if necessary too, like media queries, support to multi-column layout, the nth-child(odd) or nth-child(even) to select alternated elements, and even border-radius. In the end, CSS3 is a great way to reduce the file size by reducing the amount of HTML code necessary.

I know maybe it's not worth it, but this is the way I learned since the beginning and I'm worried I need to change a lot of stuff to go back to epub 2 now. But, well, maybe it's the right thing to do, so...

Thank you very much for your reply!
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozh View Post
Hey Hitch. On my epub, I have the toc.xhtml AND the toc.ncx (using the <spine toc="ncx">) as a fallback. They are identical, except for the html/xml markup, of course. But I was in doubt which one was being used too, so I did the following, as a test:

- Instead of "Chapter 1", I wrote "Chapter 1 HTML" in the toc.xhtml
- Instead of "Chapter 1", I wrote "Chapter 1 NCX" in the toc.ncx

, zipped as epub and converted it to mobi using kindlegen. So, in the end, the file rendered was the HTML one in all devices I tested (paperwhite and kindle app for android).
YES--this is my experience, too, when using either ePUB3 or files that are not pristine. It uses and displays the toc.html file on the GoTo, not just an ncx-generated "toc."

Quote:
But I think this happens because I'm using epub 3 with the "nav epub:type" markup. This makes the same file (toc.xhtml) to work as the "in book" toc and as the logical (Go To) one. I think the ncx file would be used if the epub 2 were used instead.
Possibly. I'm not sure it's as regulated as we'd hope.

Quote:
From the book ePub3 Best Practices, from Matt Garrish and Markus Gylling (O'Reilly):
Yeah, I know, but the MOBI universe is not the same as the ePUB universe, not entirely.

Quote:
And YES!, Amazon is a weirdo. All the "Navigation Guidelines" section in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines is really frustrating.
Yeah, welcome to my world. :-)

Quote:
About the HTML/CSS I'm using, to be honest, it's not really a big deal. I'm just more comfortable using the HTML5 markup, like section and nav, and I really like the additional structural semantics, so I'm using it from the beginning. All my content.opf file, too, is structured based in the epub 3 spec (no opf: namespace, no opf:scheme attribute, no opf:event, etc). Also, I think it's more well documented too, and I really like the already mentioned book ePub3 Best Practices.

I like to have some CSS3 features available to use if necessary too, like media queries, support to multi-column layout, the nth-child(odd) or nth-child(even) to select alternated elements, and even border-radius. In the end, CSS3 is a great way to reduce the file size by reducing the amount of HTML code necessary.

I know maybe it's not worth it, but this is the way I learned since the beginning and I'm worried I need to change a lot of stuff to go back to epub 2 now. But, well, maybe it's the right thing to do, so...

Thank you very much for your reply!
Hmmm...well, the question is, tho, not whether CSS3 etc. is needed, it's how to address your desired Guide items. I have this sneaking hunch that you might need to try Doitsu's solution--have you? I mean, before we all dive into far more complex solutions? or, hoped-for solutions?

Hitch
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
Kindle 5 models with the latest firmware should support KF8 (AZW3) files. However, AFAIK, they don't support KFX files.

IMHO, the easiest solution would be to simply add a class="hidden" attribute:

Code:
.hidden {
    display: none;
}
Tks Doitsu, this works really well and solves the K5 problem!
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:04 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Hmmm...well, the question is, tho, not whether CSS3 etc. is needed, it's how to address your desired Guide items. I have this sneaking hunch that you might need to try Doitsu's solution--have you? I mean, before we all dive into far more complex solutions? or, hoped-for solutions?

Hitch
Yes, Hitch, the problem is solved in the K5. Kindle app for android, on the other hand, continues to duplicate the front matter header.

A quick question: do you have a good resource to compare different kindle formats (AZW3, KF8, KFX, etc)? I think the big problem here is I'm relying too much in the ePub specs while I need to focus more on how all this stuff is translated to the (as you put it) Kindleverse. Amazon guides do not help!

Thanks again!
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozh View Post
Yes, Hitch, the problem is solved in the K5. Kindle app for android, on the other hand, continues to duplicate the front matter header.

A quick question: do you have a good resource to compare different kindle formats (AZW3, KF8, KFX, etc)? I think the big problem here is I'm relying too much in the ePub specs while I need to focus more on how all this stuff is translated to the (as you put it) Kindleverse. Amazon guides do not help!

Thanks again!
Hi:

Well, yes, but that's because I have about 10 different real live Kindle devices sitting here.

I would say that KP3 and KP2.9x are actually QUITE good. In KP3, you cannot rely on the line-heights, and you cannot see ET outside of KP3--if you sideload a file that has ET, onto a device, you won't see the ET, like popup footnotes or the like. Other than that, the two together--using KP2.9 for KF7 and line-heights, and KP3 for everything else--are accurate enough.

You are, what, sideloading your built MOBI onto a Droid device, to test that TOC Guide issue?

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Old 08-14-2018, 05:06 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Hi:

You are, what, sideloading your built MOBI onto a Droid device, to test that TOC Guide issue?
Yes, that's what i'm doing! I also tried to use the KDP test-before-publishing tool without success. I think this is a bug of the kindle app toc renderer, not a problem with my code, which is very basic, btw.

Thanks Hitch
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