02-25-2018, 03:40 AM | #106 | |
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02-25-2018, 07:21 AM | #107 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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Of course, that line is not on its own. An abundance of such hints were given. It is clear that the author wanted to be sure all readers understood this possibility existed - at least in Irene's mind. The only open question is whether the author expected readers to accept this option outright, or not. I saw the option developing as I was reading, but I felt as if Irene was leading me to it and so I doubted it. I like the thought that this might have been Nella Larsen's private little joke: Irene passing as a murderer for the readers. But perhaps she would just wonder why people like me refused to accept the obvious. |
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02-25-2018, 10:22 AM | #108 | |
Close to the Edit!
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Agreed.
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02-25-2018, 12:10 PM | #109 | ||
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Per Occam's razor: a simple explanation is generally preferable to a more complex one. Irene had motive, means, and opportunity; Irene also showed consciousness of guilt. Clare did not turn and jump. Clare did not trip. Irene pushed Clare. Explain one more thing to me, and then I'll give up. Why did Irene run at Clare? Here's the passage: Quote:
But if you can offer an alternative explanation, please do. |
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02-25-2018, 12:12 PM | #110 |
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See, I totally don't agree! As I said much earlier in this thread, I don't think that how she died really matters to what the book is about, but since we seem to be arguing about it anyway, rather than the core of the book, my 2p -- Claire always knew that she couldn't go back, and couldn't stay if found out. And always planned for her out. She said so, in so many words. And her out was, in this case, the window. She fell without a sound, knowing it was her escape from what she could not face. (And perhaps, in that, I've mistaken it -- the death is important, because it shows just how desperate Claire's situation was, as was any black woman of the time who was passing for white. All knew, and could never forget, just how irrecoverable it was.)
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02-25-2018, 12:36 PM | #111 | |
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02-25-2018, 12:41 PM | #112 |
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Easy. Her angst was just because of who she was, what she thought and how relieved she was at the result. Was she tempted? I would say undoubtedly. Did she do it? Well, the author has carefully not made that clear, but I do not believe she did. But angst? Duh, of course she has massive angst.
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02-25-2018, 01:04 PM | #113 | |
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02-25-2018, 01:27 PM | #114 |
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Absolutely.
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02-25-2018, 04:09 PM | #115 |
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We must define relief very differently.
I already noted that if I ever kill someone, I want gmw on my jury; now I think I want you to be my defense attorney. |
02-25-2018, 05:17 PM | #116 |
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I think it is reasonable she would be relieved to know Clare was gone permanently, even if she had nothing to do with it, having perceived her to be such a threat. |
02-25-2018, 05:42 PM | #117 | ||
cacoethes scribendi
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As long as we only get to see your testimony.
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Those sorts of think-one-thing-but-do-or-say-another contradictions exist in a lot of what Irene does throughout the book. I don't like her, I don't trust her, and I don't want to be her friend. But I'm not convinced she tossed Clare out the window. I think Irene would like to think she was capable; she may even believe she was responsible (perhaps Clare did step back, not to commit suicide, but in surprise or to regain personal space, forgetting how close she was to the window), and this would be enough to explain all those careful phrases/thoughts from Irene at the end. For all that, I am not trying to convince you that Irene didn't do it; I'm just trying to justify why I didn't read it the same way despite the leading hints. I did see them, but I didn't believe them. Last edited by gmw; 02-25-2018 at 05:46 PM. |
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02-25-2018, 05:56 PM | #118 |
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Sure, but my incredulity is based on your seeing only relief in the jumble of terror, fury, fear, nausea, horror, etc. that Irene feels when Clare goes out the window. (Yes, I know, everyone was presumably horrified and sickened, but Irene's the only one who cowers in the apartment having a meltdown and trying to come up with a rationalization.)
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02-25-2018, 11:45 PM | #119 | |
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If Jack had attacked Clare, they we could say that the novel is about white society turning on a black woman. Or if the black community had rejected Clare's overtures, then we could say that the novel is about the cost of passing. But as it stands? I don't have a clue about what deeper meaning underlies the story. |
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02-26-2018, 02:22 AM | #120 |
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Maybe it’s just about the society Larsen knew, pushed to extremes. We don’t ask if there is a deeper meaning to every book we read, when it is about the world we know. We just accept that world as depicted and then events take place in it, whether murder or romance or adventure or whatever.
I think the things I read into the book, of which I wrote way back at the beginning of the thread, are there perhaps, or not. That includes my thoughts on the stress of trying to live as one sort of person when you feel inside like another sort of person, whether that is to do with skin colour, or gender, or sexual preference or religious belief, or whatever. We each of us bring our own interpretation to any book, which is affected by our background, upbringing, other reading and on and on. I suppose what I love about reading is that it’s a relationship I have with the author, who is speaking to me, and he or she may say something different to each of us. |
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