More help with Latin, please

[AlexBell]

I'm working on Smoke by Ivan Turgenev for the MobileRead library, and have come across some Latin by Catullus:

Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasce requiris. Nescio: sed fieri sentio, et excrucior.

Can anyone translate it please?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I'm working on Smoke by Ivan Turgenev for the MobileRead library, and have come across some Latin by Catullus:

Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasce requiris. Nescio: sed fieri sentio, et excrucior.

Can anyone translate it please?

This is one of the most famous of all Latin love poems, and was (as you say) written by Catullus, and addressed to his mistress, Lesbia:

I hate and I love.
Why do I do this, perhaps you ask.
I don't know; but I feel it happening, and I am tortured.

("Excrucior" literally means "I am crucified" - ie nailed to a cross - but "tortured" probably gives a better sense of the meaning as used figuratively here.)

[barryem]

I've read a few books on my Kindle with latin phrases and there isn't a latin translation available. I bought a latin to English dictionary and that helps but it's clumsy and I have to look up individual words and that gives no aid in the case of idiomatic phrases.

Google helps a lot too. But this is one of the major drawbacks of the Kindle. There are lots of latin phrases in older books and I read a lot of older books.

Barry

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This is one of the most famous of all Latin love poems, and was (as you say) written by Catullus, and addressed to his mistress, Lesbia:

I hate and I love.
Why do I do this, perhaps you ask.
I don't know; but I feel it happening, and I am tortured.

("Excrucior" literally means "I am crucified" - ie nailed to a cross - but "tortured" probably gives a better sense of the meaning as used figuratively here.)

Thanks, Harry. I appreciate your quick response.

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by barryem

I've read a few books on my Kindle with latin phrases and there isn't a latin translation available. I bought a latin to English dictionary and that helps but it's clumsy and I have to look up individual words and that gives no aid in the case of idiomatic phrases.

Google helps a lot too. But this is one of the major drawbacks of the Kindle. There are lots of latin phrases in older books and I read a lot of older books.

Barry

Google translate helps sometimes, but in this case choked on a phrase in the middle.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Google translate helps sometimes, but in this case choked on a phrase in the middle.

    Odi et amo. quare id faciam fortasce requiris.
    nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.'

I suspect that what caused the choking is a typo. I think that fortasce should have been fortasse.

With that correction google translate spits out:

I hate and I love. Why do I do this, perhaps you ask.
    I do not know, but I feel it happening and I am tortured.'

[HarryT]

I didn’t even notice that . Yes, “fortasse” just means “perhaps” or “maybe”.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This is one of the most famous of all Latin love poems, and was (as you say) written by Catullus, and addressed to his mistress, Lesbia:

I hate and I love.
Why do I do this, perhaps you ask.
I don't know; but I feel it happening, and I am tortured.

("Excrucior" literally means "I am crucified" - ie nailed to a cross - but "tortured" probably gives a better sense of the meaning as used figuratively here.)

I thought Latin for crucified was crucifigo? torture-by-nails
And crucio was just the catch-all torture.

Admittedly, your Latin is a damn sight better than mine though

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

I thought Latin for crucified was crucifigo? torture-by-nails
And crucio was just the catch-all torture.

It is the catch-all torture, but my Latin dictionary notes that the verb "crucio" derives from the noun "crux" (cross), so it would appear that crucifixion is at least a closely-related idea.

"crucifigo" seems to be a Late/Vulgar Latin word - it's not in my classical Latin dictionary.

"(ex)crucio" is of course the origin of the English "excruciating" (as well as the "cruciatus" curse in Harry Potter ).

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It is the catch-all torture, but my Latin dictionary notes that the verb "crucio" derives from the noun "crux" (cross), so it would appear that crucifixion is at least a closely-related idea.

"crucifigo" seems to be a Late/Vulgar Latin word - it's not in my classical Latin dictionary.

"(ex)crucio" is of course the origin of the English "excruciating" (as well as the "cruciatus" curse in Harry Potter ).

Well, looks like I may be using trendy Latin then with these new-fangled words
So, looks like it started as crucify, became a catch-all and then needed a variant to refer specifically to the cross then

What does your classical dictionary say about tortura?
I think it started out as specifically torture used to compel a response (as opposed to just cause torment).

Edit : Looks like it comes from the old french for twist.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

What does your classical dictionary say about tortura?
I think it started out as specifically torture used to compel a response (as opposed to just cause torment).

Edit : Looks like it comes from the old french for twist.

My dictionary says that the verb "torto" means "to torment or torture", and related words do indeed have the meaning of "twist" or "bend". Eg the word "tortuotus" means "full of twists and bends". Exactly the same sense as the English word "tortuous", in other words.