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Old 05-21-2018, 06:26 PM   #61
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Are you aware that you can suspend a hold? if you see that there is only a short waiting list ahead of you and you know you won't have time to read the book soon, you can use this option.
True, but once you un-suspend the hold, you can be waiting up to another 2 weeks for it to become available to you, so you end up trying to play a timing game, hoping it becomes available before you get too far into another book. It's even worse if you are trying to binge read a series.

Sometimes the convenience of slightly stretching fair use trumps other considerations (for some people, in some situations).
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Old 05-21-2018, 07:45 PM   #62
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Putting a hold on popular books only makes it longer for others to get the book. If you cherry pick those most popular books with all your available slots, then it leaves the crumbs on the floor for the more casual readers.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:55 PM   #63
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Putting a hold on popular books only makes it longer for others to get the book.
That's bad, if your goal is to get books for other people. But if your goal is to get books for yourself, I don't really see a problem with using holds. That's what they're for.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:05 PM   #64
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:40 PM   #65
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That's bad, if your goal is to get books for other people. But if your goal is to get books for yourself, I don't really see a problem with using holds. That's what they're for.
Who said anything about getting books for other people? If you use the holds so you can uninterrupted and all the time read only popular books, then it is kind of abusing the system. It is a matter of fairness, but ultimately only a matter of fairness as long as your own selfish needs are fulfilled.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:53 PM   #66
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2. Inevitably the book I've been waiting for for six months will become available when I'm in the middle of a doorstopper that I don't want to put down just yet, so I want to hang onto it long enough to read it.

Point 2 I consider no different from my friend who puts her Kindle in airplane mode to give herself more time to finish a book, which is possibly still a grey area.

This. The only reason I remove DRM from library books is to be able to read them at my leisure without worrying about looming due dates.
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:33 PM   #67
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Who said anything about getting books for other people?
I was just posting a silly answer to what I thought was a silly statement. Not being serious. The way I read your statement, it came across as something akin to "Don't get in line to buy your groceries, because that just makes other people in line behind you have to wait longer." Kind of an obvious and silly thing to say. Maybe I mis-read your intent with your statement, but at first I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek joke.

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If you use the holds so you can uninterrupted and all the time read only popular books, then it is kind of abusing the system.
I don't see it that way at all. If they give you a tool, why is it abusive if you use that tool for the purpose it was designed for? It was designed to let you put holds on things. So why not do that?

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It is a matter of fairness, but ultimately only a matter of fairness as long as your own selfish needs are fulfilled.
I don't begrudge anybody for being in front of me in the hold line. They got there first, so of course they should be in front of me. It's not like they're ticket scalpers - rushing to be first in line to get something that they have no intention of using, only to immediately sell it at a profit. Library book loans are not like that.

I'm not sure I see the point for limiting loans on library books. Sure, physical books you have to actually have the physical book to loan it out. But digital books? If ten people want to borrow it, loan it to all ten of them. If twenty want to borrow it, loan it to all twenty. Obviously, limiting the number of library loans is a solution to a problem, I just don't understand what the problem was. It must be to assure profits for somebody. Fine. When the library obtains an ebook for loaning, I'm pretty sure they have to pay for it. Give that payment to the publisher (that's probably what they already do). Then every loan of the ebook results in a 5 cent charge to the borrower. Half goes to the library and the other half to the author. That's probably a heck of a lot more payment to the author than the publishers ever give in the current system. With ebooks, there is no ongoing cost to the publisher. So I say, give them one payment per ebook copy up front, and then they're out of the picture. Any money after that goes to the author and the facility maintaining the loaning infrastructure (the library).
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:12 AM   #68
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I'm not sure I see the point for limiting loans on library books. Sure, physical books you have to actually have the physical book to loan it out. But digital books? If ten people want to borrow it, loan it to all ten of them. If twenty want to borrow it, loan it to all twenty. Obviously, limiting the number of library loans is a solution to a problem, I just don't understand what the problem was. It must be to assure profits for somebody. Fine. When the library obtains an ebook for loaning, I'm pretty sure they have to pay for it. Give that payment to the publisher (that's probably what they already do). Then every loan of the ebook results in a 5 cent charge to the borrower. Half goes to the library and the other half to the author. That's probably a heck of a lot more payment to the author than the publishers ever give in the current system. With ebooks, there is no ongoing cost to the publisher. So I say, give them one payment per ebook copy up front, and then they're out of the picture. Any money after that goes to the author and the facility maintaining the loaning infrastructure (the library).
Ummm... have you taken a look at the cost of an ebook to the library? One article showed a half dozen books that were $8.99 to $16.99 for individuals to purchase while libraries paid $64 to $117 for the same ebook but with limited numbers of loans and/or time period for those loans. Given that quite a few books are restricted either by time or number of loans with the same terms as your average auto warranty so something like 26 loans or 1 year. To purchase the rights to loan a second or third copy is marginally cheaper per copy. This is most of the reason that you will see popular new books at the library with 5 copies and after a year, only 1 or 2 copies.

So say the library offers a copy of a new ebook. Take "The Radium Girls" by Kate Moore. On Kobo or Amazon, it would cost me $17.53 Cdn (Kobo will price match the price on Amazon.ca). The local library consortium has 2 copies for which they likely paid $211(*) for a total of 52 loans and/or 1 year. This works out to $4.07 Cdn for each loan. The question then becomes if you are willing to pay $4.07 per loan, just a bit more than your suggested 5 cents split between the library and the author. BTW, this book has 18 holds on it of which I am located at #5.

If more books were available on Overdrive's Cost per check out model, this might help since less popular books would have fewer checkouts and lower costs allowing more money to be allocated to more popular books with more checkouts.

(*) The $211 is not an actual figure but rather the price of the ebook to a consumer multiplied by the average multiplied cost to the library I was given by one library staffer. Some publishers have higher markups, some lower. The joys of licensing and not purchasing -- first sale doctrine does not apply to licenses -- so the publishers can gouge libraries with impunity.

Last edited by DNSB; 05-22-2018 at 11:00 AM. Reason: corrected typo...
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:43 AM   #69
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I don't begrudge anybody for being in front of me in the hold line. They got there first, so of course they should be in front of me. It's not like they're ticket scalpers - rushing to be first in line to get something that they have no intention of using, only to immediately sell it at a profit. Library book loans are not like that.
It doesn't quite work like that. Sure, those that came first shall get the book first. Suspending is keeping your spot, even moving up all the way to #1. So after months of waiting you make it to #2, and you should get the book soonish, right? Except now 4 or 5 people unsuspend their holds and all of them jump ahead of you. They may have never worried about exactly when they get there, since they have 20 other books also on suspend.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:20 AM   #70
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It doesn't quite work like that. Sure, those that came first shall get the book first. Suspending is keeping your spot, even moving up all the way to #1. So after months of waiting you make it to #2, and you should get the book soonish, right? Except now 4 or 5 people unsuspend their holds and all of them jump ahead of you. They may have never worried about exactly when they get there, since they have 20 other books also on suspend.
But on the other hand, if 4 or 5 people were able to unsuspend their holds, they had to initiate the holds to begin with, moving you up much quicker in the queue. So if they then decide to unsuspend their holds, you're just back to where you should have been initially.

Also, if I know I have about a week left to finish up a current book when a library book becomes available to me, I'll put it on hold because I see no reason that someone else can't be reading it rather than sitting in my reader for a week while I finish reading something else. To me it would just be selfish not to place a hold on it then to let someone else borrow it.

I don't think anyone using the hold feature is trying to game the system or take advantage of it or of other library members no matter what their reason is for a particular hold. That's the way holds are meant to work, letting others behind you in the hold list read the book ahead of you without losing your place in line.

Last edited by Ripplinger; 05-22-2018 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:18 AM   #71
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It's like if you're #5 in a line. #2 says to #3, "I gotta go to the restroom, will you hold my place?" They run off and take care of business, then come back to their original place in line and say "Thank you". Or if #3 has already completed the line when #2 gets back, usually #4 will let them right back in and say, "Of course, you were here first". That's common courtesy, and normal behavior for most people. There are of course jerks, who would tell the returning person to *&^% off. I don't have a whole lot of respect for people like that. Usually many people behind the jerk will gladly let #2 back in line in front of them, and even apologize for the jerks self-serving behavior.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:19 AM   #72
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It's like if you're #5 in a line. #2 says to #3, "I gotta go to the restroom, will you hold my place?" They run off and take care of business, then come back to their original place in line and say "Thank you". Or if #3 has already completed the line when #2 gets back, usually #4 will let them right back in and say, "Of course, you were here first". That's common courtesy, and normal behavior for most people. There are of course jerks, who would tell the returning person to *&^% off. I don't have a whole lot of respect for people like that. Usually many people behind the jerk will gladly let #2 back in line in front of them, and even apologize for the jerks self-serving behavior.
Yes, that's a good example. Of course with Overdrive it's all anonymous so you don't know who to curse at
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:31 AM   #73
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Who said anything about getting books for other people? If you use the holds so you can uninterrupted and all the time read only popular books, then it is kind of abusing the system. It is a matter of fairness, but ultimately only a matter of fairness as long as your own selfish needs are fulfilled.
Since my library allows only 6 holds and the most popular books have dozens of holds, I wouldn't get a lot of books read if that was all I did!

I usually don't even bother putting on hold a brand-new popular book that has 50 or 100 holds right out of the gate. I just put those on my wish list for later. I usually don't put anything on hold unless it has no more than maybe 10 people in line.

In the unlikely event that there were a brand-new hot book that I desperately wanted to read right away I would buy it.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:53 PM   #74
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I'm someone who removes DRM from libary books, though not for pirating purposes. Here's why I do:

1. Formatting. This is actually the biggest reason. I'm probably way more sensitive to how I want my reading page formatted than I should be, but there it is.

2. Inevitably the book I've been waiting for for six months will become available when I'm in the middle of a doorstopper that I don't want to put down just yet, so I want to hang onto it long enough to read it.

I have a column in Calibre to track if something is from the library. I delete library books from Calibre when I have finished them, and I also return them if it's within the original loan period (and most of the time it is). I periodically audit myself to make sure I haven't inadvertently kept anything that I borrowed. If I think I'll read want to something I've borrowed again, I'll go buy it.

Point 1 likely has limited validity for a lot of folks. Point 2 I consider no different from my friend who puts her Kindle in airplane mode to give herself more time to finish a book, which is possibly still a grey area.
I consider it like a VCR. I am time shifting. I am still only reading the book once, and then deleting it. Since the library has the book to relend, I don't see the harm. But I know this as been a hot topic in the past.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:25 AM   #75
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Since my library allows only 6 holds and the most popular books have dozens of holds, I wouldn't get a lot of books read if that was all I did!

I usually don't even bother putting on hold a brand-new popular book that has 50 or 100 holds right out of the gate. I just put those on my wish list for later. I usually don't put anything on hold unless it has no more than maybe 10 people in line.

In the unlikely event that there were a brand-new hot book that I desperately wanted to read right away I would buy it.
At my library, they also have a rental program for physical copies of really hot books. I'm surprised at how soon books show up available on the rental shelves. I think I've only used it once, since I'd rather wait for the ebook.

Not that there are many "hot" books I'm really interested in reading.
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