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Old 07-03-2019, 08:15 AM   #31
shalym
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As for the main topic, believing that it is reasonable to licence ebooks on a term basis to libraries rather then selling a permanent licence is not the same as believing that the terms and rents that are currently being charged are reasonable. I think that the cost of an ebook licence for a library should be no more (over the lifetime of the licence) then the cost of the equivalent paper book (over the expected lifetime of a book of that type).
Exactly.

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Old 07-03-2019, 08:38 AM   #32
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I'm not sure where you are coming from. I haven't heard anyone in this thread say they want it for free.
...
I saw on another site where the average checkout per year is 1.4 times. So 2.8 every 2 years. So you are saying that an average pbook deteriorates every 2.8 checkouts?
Well, yes. Paper books deteriorate based on time and exposure as well as usage. Given that quite a few patrons don't treat library books particularly well, books can deteriorate quite a bit. There is a reason most libraries tend to carry mostly hard back books.

I remember reading that at one time, libraries were the major source of income for quite a few authors. It makes sense if you think about it. The average number of sales for an average book is somewhere between 5,000 to 10,000 depending on topic and genre. For some non fiction or specialized books, the majority of their sales are to libraries. Then add in that most libraries tend to buy hardback books. No publisher is going to not sale to libraries, that's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The flip side of that is that ebooks can change the dynamics quite a bit. Publishers have no control over a paper book once they sale it. This is the first sale doctrine. However, ebooks open up other possibilities, so publishers are exploring those possibilities. eBooks also open up other risks. People like to share books. Depending on how that's done, it can mean reduced sales for a given author and publisher.

There really are two sides to this particular issue and neither side is completely in the right or wrong.
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:30 AM   #33
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Well, yes. Paper books deteriorate based on time and exposure as well as usage. Given that quite a few patrons don't treat library books particularly well, books can deteriorate quite a bit. There is a reason most libraries tend to carry mostly hard back books.

...
People keep repeating "pbooks deteriorate". I gave a number on the average number of annual checkouts (I have no idea on its validity). I'd be surprised if at a rate of 1.4, they are deteriorateing that fast.

And given that quite a few patrons' treat them quite well, they won't deteriorate that fast.

I would hope if patrons are repeatedly abusing books, the librarians would give them a good talking to, and eventually ban them.

I have to say, when I look at pbooks on my libraries' shelves, they look relatively good. Given that libraries are on a budget, they are not going to replace it just because it has a little deterioration.

With pbooks, the libraries pick what is acceptable deterioration; with ebooks, it is fixed by the publisher.

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There really are two sides to this particular issue and neither side is completely in the right or wrong.
+1
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:11 AM   #34
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You know folks, there is a much more direct way to read a particular book when you want to read it.

Buy yourself a copy.

Forget ebooks for the moment. Libraries never purchase enough of popular books. They never even attempt to satisfy initial demand. That's not their purpose. It's economically unfeasible.

eBooks don't change this. Not one bit.

If you are really upset that the book YOU want to read...RIGHT NOW....isn't available at your library....buy the book yourself.

It's so much more efficient than lobbying the government to raise your taxes so that books can be bought on your behalf in enough volume to satisfy your desire to read a "in demand" book during the "in demand window".

Just as ebooks sold/licensed to individuals are at prices having nothing to do with the cost of manufacture....the same is with libraries. Libraries will stock the books according to their own logic and budget.

An ebook can cost quite a bit more than a paper book and STILL be a deal as far as a library is concerned. No cost to re-shelve it. No waiting for folks to turn the book back in. No cost in shelving and floor space and heating/air conditioning. No cost to repair.

But if even all those were not true...ebooks allow libraries to continue to be relevant.

None of that matters to an individual who can merely buy a book or read any of the others that are available at the time at the library.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:05 PM   #35
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Depending on one's library system/county. another cost alleviated by ebooks is that of gas & transportation. My county library system has both a main & regional libraries; also around 12(?) neighborhood libraries (there are 3 within 2-3 miles from me).

For printed books, I can reserve them & designate which library I wanted to pick up the pbooks. If the local library doesn't have a copy available, it can have another 'local' library deliver it to my 'local' library. Then I can return the book at any library I want & the pbook will then returned to the library that 'owned' the copy.

Think of the costs of having a driver(s) running around the county to pickup & deliver printed books. The cost of gas just went up 6 cents in Calif in addition to the 12.5 cents last year; the news media says that the cost of gas will be going up each year as it is tied the the cost of living by the stupid people that approved the gas tax increase act to more subsidize the legislature pork barrel.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:54 PM   #36
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And all these storage, transportation, deteroriation due to time should be savings for the publishers?
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:09 PM   #37
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If you are poor -- wait or read something else.
Wow, what a display of the "Eff you, I've got mine" attitude.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:16 PM   #38
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I'm not sure where you are coming from. I haven't heard anyone in this thread say they want it for free.
To pile on, library books are NOT free! Every person who pays state/local taxes contributes to the commons, one of those commons being a state/county/city public library system.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:53 PM   #39
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A bit more like, if you want to use this great "free" service, you are stuck living within its limitations.

If you can't afford $50 to take your family to the movie theater to see Toy Story 4 the week it comes out, then you wait six months and get it from Redbox for $2 instead. It's not Eff You to poor people, it's recognizing that free/cheaper options have shortcomings relative to throwing money at whatever you want.

Edit: Admittedly, it would have been nicer to say "If you don't want to spend your cash", instead of "If you are poor", but that really doesn't change the fact that all of us have to decide how we spend our limited funds. Very few of us can just buy whatever we want, whenever we want.

Last edited by SleepyBob; 07-03-2019 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:21 PM   #40
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A bit more like, if you want to use this great "free" service, you are stuck living within its limitations.

If you can't afford $50 to take your family to the movie theater to see Toy Story 4 the week it comes out, then you wait six months and get it from Redbox for $2 instead. It's not Eff You to poor people, it's recognizing that free/cheaper options have shortcomings relative to throwing money at whatever you want.

Edit: Admittedly, it would have been nicer to say "If you don't want to spend your cash", instead of "If you are poor", but that really doesn't change the fact that all of us have to decide how we spend our limited funds. Very few of us can just buy whatever we want, whenever we want.
I begrudge the cost of the cinema. I watch a lot of movies at home from Netflix, Amazon Prime, TV provider's movie package, and sometimes I'll rent or buy if cheap enough. There are some stores around here that sell used blu-ray including UHD. So if they have something I'm looking for cheap enough, I'll buy it. I do sometimes rent a digital copy.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:29 PM   #41
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One thing that hurts eBooks at public libraries is the time you can borrow an eBook. Most libraries had a maximum loan time of two weeks. Then a lot of those library upped the loan time to three weeks. Most people don't return early. They know when the time is up, the eBook will be returned for them. So we have most eBooks borrowed for three week at a time. So even if you get to be 4th on the list, you may have to wait about 9 weeks to get it.

If there is a book you know is coming out and you know you'll want ot read it, place a hold on it if you can ASAP so when the library buys it, you'll be on the hold list if you are not first. You'll be further up the list then if you waited until you see it in the list of eBooks the library has. By then it's a free for all. But many less people will know to put a hold on it before it's bought.

One library, I do that and then send an email to have it purchased. Most time it works and I get it fairly quickly as these are not the top sellers, but books I want to read that are popular enough once others see it's available.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:57 PM   #42
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Some (most?) countries have a public lending right on paper books, so the library has to pay the author/publisher each time the paper book is loaned out.

It could be that the payment for the right to loan paper books is too low, and if it were increased to a more resonable level then authors/publishers wouldn't need to chage as much for ebook loans.

Libraries might be publicly owned, but I think many are managed as ruthlessly as if they were private profit-making companies. They should be looking not just at trying to get the books as cheaply as possible, but also at supporting the authors/publishers who are creating the books.
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:05 PM   #43
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...

If there is a book you know is coming out and you know you'll want ot read it, place a hold on it if you can ASAP so when the library buys it, you'll be on the hold list if you are not first. You'll be further up the list then if you waited until you see it in the list of eBooks the library has. By then it's a free for all. But many less people will know to put a hold on it before it's bought.

...
And if one is using Overdrive, "recommend" works similar to what Jon is describing.
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:21 PM   #44
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To pile on, library books are NOT free! Every person who pays state/local taxes contributes to the commons, one of those commons being a state/county/city public library system.
They are free to the borrower though, which I think contributes a lot to the problems libraries have.

If the library can't charge for its services, then the only ways it can manage increased demand is to reduce services, pay suppliers or staff less, or engage in politics to push for tax increases.

If they could charge fees then they would have another way to manage costs. Even a small fee per loan would give borrowers an incentive to be more selective with what they borrow, and would be some protectiuon against abuse of the service.

I think it would be fairer on everyone to charge fees to people who make heavy use of the services, such as adults who borrow hundreds of fiction books per year.
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:53 PM   #45
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People keep repeating "pbooks deteriorate". I gave a number on the average number of annual checkouts (I have no idea on its validity). I'd be surprised if at a rate of 1.4, they are deteriorateing that fast.

And given that quite a few patrons' treat them quite well, they won't deteriorate that fast.

I would hope if patrons are repeatedly abusing books, the librarians would give them a good talking to, and eventually ban them.

I have to say, when I look at pbooks on my libraries' shelves, they look relatively good. Given that libraries are on a budget, they are not going to replace it just because it has a little deterioration.

With pbooks, the libraries pick what is acceptable deterioration; with ebooks, it is fixed by the publisher.


+1
One of my teenage jobs was working at the local library for a summer. The answer is that yes, paperback books deteriorate fairly quickly under normal usage. Hardback books can last a lot longer.
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