eBook prices?

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

From the most part, the average reader has no clue what publisher their favorite author uses and could care less about agency pricing.

There has long been a clientele for cheap generic books. That's the niche that the old used bookstore filled, where you took in a bag of books, got credit for them and took home a bag of books. My mother did that for years. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The issue now is that ebooks don't really have the equivalent and that clientele really, really wants cheap generic ebooks. So there have been a couple of efforts to fill that niche, i.e. the indie movement and the subscription model (i.e. KU). There are likely others. Once again, nothing wrong with those business models. My only question is can the authors make enough to keep writing. We will see.

My issue is that some people who prefer this model seem to think that traditional publishers are evil for not selling them ebooks at their preferred price point. That makes as much sense to me as complaining that Apple won't sell iPhones at the same price point as the el cheapo Korean phones. It's not a moral issue. If you don't want to pay $15 for an ebook, then fine, don't. No skin off my nose. It's a personal choice, not a moral decision. I'm not willing to pay for a BMW when I can get from point A to point B with a much cheaper Honda. But that doesn't make BMW evil.

My issue with your narrative is that you still insist that all traditionally published books are inherently better than indies or self-published. Why? You try to say, without technically outright saying it, that only those that used to trade a bag of used books for a new bag of used books are now happily using indies and KU. Ignoring subscriptions and paper books for a second, the payment to the self pubbed author is higher even though the sales price is much lower than trad published.

Your example comparing (ironically) the iPhone vs el cheapo Korean phone with tradpub vs indie is flawed. The only reason there is no cheap iPhones around is, because Apple does not allow any competition. If you refer to Korea on purpose to hint towards Samsung, when you are barking up the wrong tree. While Samsung does make entry level and cheap phones, their high end models are far from cheap and with a healthy profit margin.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

My issue with your narrative is that you still insist that all traditionally published books are inherently better than indies or self-published. Why?

For me personally, the traditional publisher's role of "gatekeeper" is something that's worth paying for. Others may of course feel differently, and that's fine. I, for example, buy Baen's monthly ebook bundle every month. Often it contains authors I've never heard of, but experience has taught me that whatever Baen publish I'm likely to enjoy.

Obviously there are other ways of finding new authors, but that's one that works for me, and which I'm happy to pay the asking price for.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It dropped because Apple and B&N entered the market giving Amazon some competition. Before that, the only competition was from the Sony Store.

Keep in mind that just because some judge buys into someone's narrative, doesn't make it true, it's just means that the judge bought the narrative.

We get back then to just how this "competition" worked with prices off the playing field, and why it failed so badly as to allow enormous price rises. I'll give you a hint. The conspiracy had something to do with it. It is very clear that Apple had no interest in entering the market if it had to compete on price with Amazon.

I might add that my earlier blanket statement about agency causing Amazon's loss of market share was too general and simplistic. It is not quite that simple. B&N entered the market in 2009 with a very good ereader and an adequate online store. Apple entered the market in 2010 with its IPad. I recall Steve Jobs or one of his executives was quoted at the time as wanting the IPad to be the best device for reading which would triumph because of its general utility. People not wanting to carry both a Kindle and an IPad would choose the IPad. Yet apparently Apple wisely had little confidence in this since it would not enter the market whilst it was price competitive. Amazon was, as you point out, was always going to lose some market share at least initially by the mere entry of B&N and then Apple to the market. Removing price competition was a pre-condition to Apple entering the market and removed Amazon's best method to compete and regain this market share. Which, of course, it mostly did when the conspiracy collapsed. Both B&N and Apple are still selling ebooks today. The have not "drifted away", though one could certainly argue they have not been that effective in a competitive market.

[haertig]

My decisions on what books to read are not based on who published it. Big 5, independent, self-published? I don't care. Unless I've read reviews that formatting is terrible, but then I tend to blame that on a specific eBook and/or author, not the publisher generically. Because, as I said before, I really don't know or care who the publisher is.

My reading decision is simple: "Is it something that interests me and I want to read?" If yes, next question: "Does my library carry it?" If yes, then the decision is complete. I get it from the library. If the library doesn't carry it, my next question is "How much does it cost?" No decision is made based on this question (unless the cost is really low), I'm just gathering a data point. Now, the next question: "Do I already own something, or have something on my wishlist to purchase, that I want to read as much as the original item, and this alternate item costs less?" If I have a cheaper alternate item, then the decision is made. I read that alternate. If I don't have an alternate, I look at the price of the new book. I will make a decision to buy it or not on that price. My threshold changes constantly, but for the most part, if it's more than about $5 (for a fiction novel) then I put it on my Amazon Wishlist and hang back, hoping to get an email some day that "an item you like is on sale". I usually never get that email (sometimes I do), so that new book mostly never gets purchased. This is because I always seem to have an alternate book, several actually, that took the new purchase out of the running in a previous decision step.

I used to buy more books and never used the library. I just read too slowly to get a book completed in the 3 weeks they typically allow for an eBook. But now that I'm retired, I have a lot more time to read. And I've also discovered that several different libraries in my area have let me join, so if the eBook I'm reading has a hold blocking me from re-checking it out, I can usually get it right away from a different library. So I no longer have to worry about not being able to finish a book in time. And given that, libraries rule supreme over other sources for eBooks for me. Realistically, I'd never have to buy another book in my life given the supply in my libraries. There's so much more available there than I could ever read. So now I only buy eBooks that I really really really want. Two "really's" doesn't count. Gotta be three.

I did take advantage of the "Kindle Unlimited for three months for 99 cents" deal on the last Amazon Prime Day. So I am using that bargain to read as many newer and less established authors (that often times aren't in libraries) as I can before my three months runs out.

So while I don't like the (what I consider) high selling prices for eBooks, I don't give it much thought, except in online discussions like this one. Since I buy so few these days, it just doesn't affect me much.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That doesn't surprise me. Like I said; I don't think it's very common that someone does change out all (or even most, or many) of their favorite authors for new ones. But darryl has suggested that with the exception of one, his favorite authors have changed entirely from pre-agency to post-.

Originally Posted by cfrizz

I haven't abandoned my favorite authors, I simply get them from the library. The rest of the time I'm reading Indies, and have tons to read, especially mid-listers who have reclaimed their backlists and are self publishing.

DiapDealer's point is a very good one which has given me some food for thought. I did have a set of authors whose works I purchased religiously when they were released as paperback versions or later ebooks. I did make a conscious decision not to buy agency priced ebooks when the conspiracy entered into effect. That did not go so far as a conscious decision not to read these authors books. I joined a number of extra libraries with ebook collections at that time. But I realised one day that I suddenly had a whole new set of favourite authors and no lack of reading material. As my old favourites released new works I no longer felt any urgency to read them. I remember thinking with some at first that I would read them later when the queue declined at the library, or buy them later when and if they become available at a price I was prepared to pay. And one day I realised that just about all my reading was Indies and that I hadn't made that much use of the library. And that the only surviving author in the must read category was John Sandford. And even his ebooks I am getting from the library where previously I would have bought them.

Also, I did not intend to create the impression that I never read any of my previous favourite authors. Sometimes I do borrow and read some of their books, though I no longer purchase them. I no longer follow them and await eagerly their next release. And all but a couple I do seem to have abandoned altogether in the sense that I have raad none of their titles since agency. My reading now is probably 85% to 90% Indie's and the only tradpub author I now track is Sandford. What tradpub I do read is mainly borrowed backlist or Sandford's Prey series. Since agency I have read two Stephen King novels and two Jeffery Deaver novels (Lincoln Rhyme), all borrowed.

On reflection perhaps it is more that Agency was the catalyst for me to realise that many of my favourites were favourites no longer, and to look at a whole range of fresh authors. And, of course, to borrow rather than buy tradpub books I still want to read.

And one more interesting point. I don't initially browse books and divide them into tradpubs or indies. If they attract my attention I look then at price, which usually makes the distinction very obvious.

Thanks to you both for your comments.

[DiapDealer]

Thanks darryl. I didn't mean to suggest there was anything wrong with your change in habits (due to agency). Just wanted to point out that I don't think it's that common.

I DO think it's a bit limiting (and yes, slightly odd) to exclude TBR material based primarily on the publishing path of the author. I myself am open to reading (and with me, reading automatically includes buying) just about anything--indie or trad-pubbed. So long as it sounds interesting, and someone whose reading likes and dislikes are known to me have offered honest insight into it, I'll give it a shot. Life's too short for me to take the time to decide whether or not I want to punish an author (and potentially myself) for a decision they made that has nothing to with story writing and story reading. *shrug*

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

And you made up your mind by reading the opinions of people who agreed AND disagreed with Cotes' ruling (since you're not a lawyer and hence unqualified to interpret precedent)? Or did you merely focus on the opinions of other experts who shared your preconceived notion that she made incorrect rulings?

I read opinions on both sides. I read the original report that presented at the trial, as well as analysis on both sides of the questions of that report.

I've also read analysis of both sides on Cotes ruling, which is a very different issue. I've pointed to Jacobs' dissenting opinion of the appeal ruling a number of times here. Specifically, Jocobs said that "Apple took steps to compete with a monopolist and open the market to more entrants, generating only minor competitive restraints in the process". So it's not really the open and closed, Cote is the absolute authority situation that some want it to be.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

True enough, but I looked at the evidence and made up my own mind rather than cite some judge who is most certainly not a subject matter expert.

The judge does NOT need to be an expert in the subject matter. A judge only needs to be an expert in the LAW, Which crosses and applies to all subject matter.

The bottom line is according to the EXPERT opinion of the judge in the matter of the LAW, Apple and company broke the law.

Unless you have a law degree and are licensed to practice law and you want to go find a LAW that contradicts Judge Cote's law ruling, all you have is your opinion.

You are free to have it, but it doesn't mean squat in term of what is allowable and provable by law.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

My issue with your narrative is that you still insist that all traditionally published books are inherently better than indies or self-published. Why? You try to say, without technically outright saying it, that only those that used to trade a bag of used books for a new bag of used books are now happily using indies and KU. Ignoring subscriptions and paper books for a second, the payment to the self pubbed author is higher even though the sales price is much lower than trad published.

Your example comparing (ironically) the iPhone vs el cheapo Korean phone with tradpub vs indie is flawed. The only reason there is no cheap iPhones around is, because Apple does not allow any competition. If you refer to Korea on purpose to hint towards Samsung, when you are barking up the wrong tree. While Samsung does make entry level and cheap phones, their high end models are far from cheap and with a healthy profit margin.

No, you are reading far too much into the example. I speak in generalities not in absolutes. I actually read a number of indies and have several in my favorites list. I said that the indie market is trying to fill the niche that the used book store use to fill. Note, that used book stores filled a lot of roles. You had the people who just wanted generic books of whatever genre they liked (my mother liked romance). It also filled the role of people who liked specific authors, but didn't want to pay full price, or were trying to find backlist books.

Once again, by trying to focus on the trees rather than the forest, you miss the overall point, which is that some people are willing to pay for a known quality, while others just want something that is cheap and works. If I meant Samsung I would have said Samsung. As you correctly note, Samsung actually makes a high end phone which is just as good as Apple's phone. I was talking about the knock offs that you get for free when you sign a two year contract.

As far as traditional publishers being better than indies or self-published, I'm not really saying that. As mentioned before, several indies are on favorites list and I buy a lot of backlist books that are either published via Amazon or self-published. My major focus on tradition publishers isn't on publishers per se, but specific imprints.

While Baen was alive, odds were pretty good that I was going to like at least half the books he published in a given month. Being a mostly SF&F reader during long periods of time, there were specific imprints, like Del Rey, DAW, Ace and Tor during specific time period where the books that were published under those imprints matched my taste quite a bit. For example, the Del Rey imprint still exists, but drifted away from my tastes back in the early 90's after Lester Del Rey died. More than anything, it's about liking the selections of a specific editor.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

The judge does NOT need to be an expert in the subject matter. A judge only needs to be an expert in the LAW, Which crosses and applies to all subject matter.

The bottom line is according to the EXPERT opinion of the judge in the matter of the LAW, Apple and company broke the law.

Unless you have a law degree and are licensed to practice law and you want to go find a LAW that contradicts Judge Cote's law ruling, all you have is your opinion.

You are free to have it, but it doesn't mean squat in term of what is allowable and provable by law.

Or I can point to a different judge who disagrees with her ruling, which is what I did.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Or I can point to a different judge who disagrees with her ruling, which is what I did.

Everyone has an opinion. The opinion of the judge who presided over the case is the one that matters. And was the decision overturned by any other judge? (That also matters.)

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For me personally, the traditional publisher's role of "gatekeeper" is something that's worth paying for. Others may of course feel differently, and that's fine. I, for example, buy Baen's monthly ebook bundle every month. Often it contains authors I've never heard of, but experience has taught me that whatever Baen publish I'm likely to enjoy.

Obviously there are other ways of finding new authors, but that's one that works for me, and which I'm happy to pay the asking price for.

What's funny about this is that I thought Baen was an independent publisher. Their prices seem to more closely match independent publisher prices (on average $7, it appears) and many of their book covers seem kind of amateurish. And the one I've tried (it was free) seemed poorly typeset and the author seems too "on the nose" through the first couple chapters I've read. But I may have just gotten a "bad apple." Or maybe if I force myself to keep reading it will get better. I've had the book for a few years now.

Meanwhile, last month Amazon let you download all their "First Reads" books. I didn't know any of the authors. I downloaded five of them and (so far) have read three, and all three were pretty good. (I guess Amazon could also be considered a "gatekeeper?")

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Everyone has an opinion. The opinion of the judge who presided over the case is the one that matters. And was the decision overturned by any other judge? (That also matters.)

Actually that isn't particularly accurate in the US system of justice. The trial judge's opinion usually has very little influence. A lot of people don't understand how the appellate system works in the US. Frequently, the dissenting opinions in an appellate court has a lot more influence than the majority decision. This is because dissenting opinions tend to be more open and to the point, while majority decisions tend to be rather bland. Scalia was best known for his dissenting opinions.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by rcentros

What's funny about this is that I thought Baen was an independent publisher. Their prices seem to more closely match independent publisher prices (on average $7, it appears) and many of their book covers seem kind of amateurish. And the one I've tried (it was free) seemed poorly typeset and the author seems too "on the nose" through the first couple chapters I've read. But I may have just gotten a "bad apple." Or maybe if I force myself to keep reading it will get better. I've had the book for a few years now.

Meanwhile, last month Amazon let you download all their "First Reads" books. I didn't know any of the authors. I downloaded five of them and (so far) have read three, and all three were pretty good. (I guess Amazon could also be considered a "gatekeeper?")

Baen, like any other publisher, can be hit or miss. I've read some very good books by them and some quite poor. The same as any other "gatekeeper" out there and also the same as no gatekeeper at all. Some books you like, others not so much. For me, at least, it has always been that way, no matter where I get the books.

I've never had favorite authors or publishers. I constantly read new authors and also new books by authors I'm already familiar with, but there has never been a single author whose books I buy sight unseen, so to speak. I choose my reading material not by author or publisher, but 1) by genre, 2) by synopsis, 3) by price, in that order. As a rule, I don't buy ebooks which cost more than 10$ (the exception being some nonfiction books and that's rare), I'm also not particularly interested in other people's recommendations and opinions (unless most of the readers have a bad opinion of the book in question and I happen to agree with their reasons for this opinion). If I want a book and its price is in two digits, I'll just wait till the price drops. It doesn't matter to me who has published the book, unless it's not fiction (I don't really trust self-publishing in nonfiction).

Borrowing ebooks from a library is not an option in my country and KU isn't available here either.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Actually that isn't particularly accurate in the US system of justice. The trial judge's opinion usually has very little influence. A lot of people don't understand how the appellate system works in the US. Frequently, the dissenting opinions in an appellate court has a lot more influence than the majority decision. This is because dissenting opinions tend to be more open and to the point, while majority decisions tend to be rather bland. Scalia was best known for his dissenting opinions.

Cote's decision was upheld in an appeals court and the Supreme Court saw no reason hear the case again. Apple has paid the $450 million settlement. I would say it's over. Jobs said, publicly, that he would raise the price of eBooks. And he used the collusion with the Big Five to it.