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Old 04-23-2018, 09:25 AM   #31
Hitch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovidgoyal View Post
No, if a character X is used then all ligatures in the font that involve that character are automatically preserved.
Do I understand you to mean that if, for example, an f is used, all the ligatures for "f" are included, eg., fl, ff, etc.?

That does not seem to be the case, in the book about which I told the story. Hmmmmmmmpppphhhh.


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Old 04-23-2018, 10:29 AM   #32
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Yes, that is correct. If you have a book for which that is not happening, I would be most interested in a bug report.
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:21 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovidgoyal View Post
Yes, that is correct. If you have a book for which that is not happening, I would be most interested in a bug report.
I'll try to remember WHICH book it was. This occurred some (maybe as many as 6?) months back, but I can probably backtrack it by finding my emails with Toxaris and working out from there.

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Old 04-24-2018, 03:57 PM   #34
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If I recall correctly, the main issue was not the ff, fi, etc ligatures. It were the obscure ones that almost no font has anyway.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
If I recall correctly, the main issue was not the ff, fi, etc ligatures. It were the obscure ones that almost no font has anyway.
it was not, primarily, the fs, that's correct, but that sure was a damned doozy.

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Old 04-25-2018, 12:49 AM   #36
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I'll just quote some "fuzzy" comments on this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
If I recall correctly, the main issue was not the ff, fi, etc ligatures. It were the obscure ones that almost no font has anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
it was not, primarily, the fs, that's correct, but that sure was a damned doozy.
What conforts me, is that you seem to understand each other... Do you?

On another recent MR thread but on the same topic, I found this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Have you tried font subsetting using Calibre?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Jon:

Yes, of course we have, and it does not automatically subset the shy, or any other punctuation symbols. OR ligs, for that matter...I think it's a super tool for people to save space, in their own files, but it has some drawbacks (like the ligatures), that make it a better choice, for us, to use Tox's program.
I am afraid that at this point something more clear and concrete is expected. You may be sued for defamation at the MR court.

I do not know of which "punctuation symbols" you were speaking. You only quoted the shy which is quite widely supported.

Last edited by roger64; 04-25-2018 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 04-25-2018, 01:32 PM   #37
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The world of ligatures is vague. There are 'common' ones like ff, ffi, fi, etc. Then there are more unusual ones, that not always have a history in printing. One that comes to mind that was actually involved in this, was a ligature for Th.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:23 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger64 View Post
I'll just quote some "fuzzy" comments on this thread:


What conforts me, is that you seem to understand each other... Do you?
Conforts? Sorry, is that contort? And yes, bless his heart, Tox manages to understand what the hell I'm talking about. He's helped us, a lot, outside of the MR sphere, so he's probably more accustomed to speaking fluent Hitch.

Quote:
On another recent MR thread but on the same topic, I found this:

I am afraid that at this point something more clear and concrete is expected. You may be sued for defamation at the MR court.

I do not know of which "punctuation symbols" you were speaking. You only quoted the shy which is quite widely supported.

Oh, great, I've slept since then. I vaguely remember the thread, and I remember that somewhere in time, we discussed the fact that Calibre didn't subset the shy. I think. I don't remember, I cheerfully admit, where that came to my brain. Oh, right, the bloody Edge browser.

If memory serves, we'd stumbled across an issue...a client used the Edge browser to view a book. (Not intentionally; we now have to warn clients NOT to double-click the bloody ePUB, if they're running Win10, because the book will automagically open, in Edge, which doesn't always display the books to their best, to put it mildly.)

Anyway, the browser used hyphenation, which we had turned OFF, per the client's instructions. The shy was displaying...either not at all, or the Edge browser was substituting its own version. That part, I don't remember. Nonetheless, my point was, obviously, Calibre didn't subset the shy, because, in our intended version, it wasn't used. That makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, what was borne home to me in that visceral way was that we don't always control whether or not that's used by the end reader--and if it's not subset, we can run into those issues, with Edge, Moonreader, etc., again.

That's how I got there, to that. If I'd known that there was going to be a test, I'd have taken screenshots. ;-)

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Old 04-25-2018, 09:00 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
AFAIK, there are no mainstream epub2 apps that actually support ligatures (and other OpenType features). What apps/readers do you use to test ligatures?

Is there a ligature bug in the Calibre subsetting code? If so, you might want to report it to Kovid, if you haven't already done so. (When I reported a font subsetting problem with Arabic fonts a couple of years ago he fixed it the same day and the fix made it into the weekly Calibre build.)
Umm, a little known epub 2 renderer called Adobe RMSDK supports ligatures and kerning (and maybe other opentype features).

In fact, Here are a couple of screenshots from my Kobo of a test epub. First screenshot is the in built Georgia font, which clearly has no ligatures. The second screenshot, I switched to Alegreya, which does.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Georgia No Lig.png
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ID:	163674   Click image for larger version

Name:	Alegreya Lig.png
Views:	97
Size:	49.7 KB
ID:	163675  
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:32 AM   #40
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Yep. I get ligatures on my Kobo with epub2 books. (And my sideloaded fonts are all ttf fonts, so why are ligatures always called an otf feature? )
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Old 04-26-2018, 03:46 AM   #41
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Yep. I get ligatures on my Kobo with epub2 books. (And my sideloaded fonts are all ttf fonts, so why are ligatures always called an otf feature? )
Because modern "ttf" fonts are actually OpenType fonts. Convention is that OpenType fonts with TrueType outlines use the "TTF" file extension, whereas OpenType fonts with PostScript outlines use the "OTF" file extension. They are both OpenType fonts and therefore support OpenType features such as kerning and ligatures.

So calling something an OTF feature is not really correct (unless it has to do with the glyph outlines themselves).
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:08 AM   #42
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Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:15 PM   #43
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Thank you sherman for your information and examples.

So ligature display can vary according to the font (Alegreya > Georgia), the renderer (RMSDK > creengine (for koreader)), the subsetter (to be determined) and probably some other - yet- unidentified factors.

The subset of a defective -on this regard- font, will not display ligatures. The subsetter has nothing to do about it. That's why it would be unfair to speak about a "bug" of the subsetter without providing an example. Examples will help us ascertain the origin of the defect. It's not a test.

Last edited by roger64; 04-26-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:19 PM   #44
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It's important to note that Georgia may or may not contain ligatures in other versions. It's just that the version preloaded onto Kobo does not appear to.
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleshuffle View Post
Thanks.
Dubbs, sweetie, or my other Twoo Wuv, Tox, do you have an ePUB with Ligs I could borrow? I do NOT have one, and not to be a cranky old cow, but I really don't have the time to muck around with it. If you (or any other kindly soul) have one iwth ligs, I'd appreciate it if you'd fire it over to me to look at/test.

Use my Hightail, if you wish:




Thanks, and even if nobody does have one, thanks anyway...
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