Current state of digital comics - Page 2

Lemurion · 04-23-2011, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

In a legitimate source?

No, and that's a big part of the problem.

Those willing to go to illegitimate sources not only have access to a greater variety of content (including complete runs) but also that it's in a better format.

Blue Tyson · 04-23-2011, 10:29 PM

Legitimate? No, of course not. But brand new work, the next day, that the companies themselves DO NOT sell, ever. Or in the small percentage of cases they do, only for one phone application in the case of Marvel, that sort of thing.

And almost all in horribly slow clunky flash applications as far as the web goes.

rsand27 · 04-23-2011, 11:05 PM

Digital comics definitely need to be cheaper. Readers are already complaining about the increasing cost of print comics. DC and Marvel have even been advertising the $2.99 price like some kind of great service for their readers after the $3.99 price tag didn't pan out.

If you look at the history of comic books, they never had such drastic price increases as they have over the last 20 years. I started collecting comics 20 years ago at $0.75. They had been $0.75 for some time. Before that, 60, 50, 40, 30, 25, 20, 15, 12, 10 (going back to the 30s/40s). In 50 years there were small incremental price increases (and considerable page reductions). In the last 20 years the price has skyrocketed to $3.99 for some 20-page stories.

Many critics of the industry today note the decreasing quality of content, as stories are stuffed with filler to expand them into six-parts for republication in graphic novel form. In the 1970s-1990s readers received high-quality storytelling in single issue stories. Today we get six issues of fluff to go along with the increasing costs. At $2.99 per issue X 6 issues that's $18 for the same quality content we use to get stuffed into one issue for $1.50 just 10 years ago.

With print comics, they can argue the cost of paper, ink, storage, and distribution. How digital comics are the same price is mind-boggling. And the back issue pricing, as others have noted is not in tune with the market. I purchase very few new comics anymore. I wait for the comic convention to come around each year and buy everything I missed for 25-50 cents per book from retailer overstock. This approach fails me occasionally when an issue is "hot" and hits a significantly higher price point than the cover cost, but with all "hot" modern era comics, they cool down by the following year. I would say this is due to the gimmicky nature of comic today. All the "hot" items are spawned out of ridiculous "event" stories that kill, then later revive, a major character. Those books lose their demand fast.

Blue Tyson · 04-24-2011, 03:04 AM

Having high priced old stuff is odd, certainly - given that they make zero money from them now, the publishers that is, as compared to retailers, so it could be part of appeasement of the latter.

And you are right about the prices now, even getting them shipped across the planet you can get stuff for $1 each or less from places like Mile High Comics.

Actual comic shops that price your garden variety back issue in the USA at cover price or even 2/3 of cover price (or equivalent ratio in other countries) will never sell most of them either

It is interesting how other media companies use georestrictions, but they won't. e.g. to sell to countries that don't have comic shops.

The 2.99 to 3.99 jump is the strangest thing. Presumably they are going on the psychological theory of the .99 so 3.25 or 3.35 or whatever doesn't matter. Might have got away with it better in stages, with pricing variety.

Given that webshops will have no problem with .15 or 3.19 or whatever pricing and I am also pretty sure that comic book employees can still handle the concepts of 20c 25c, 50c and do the change thing it is rather strange.

Colouring of course has made quantum leaps via technology - but with computer assistance, so presumably is not too much different in cost to cover price ratio than it used to be, or it wouldn't happen. Pencillers and inkers still do the same thing, if with different tools, and actually have more work to do with the padding that you mention, and writers and letterers less.

etherspin · 04-24-2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I've tried a few apps like Graphical.ly, and really not had much success. Much more of a pain than apps that use the CBR/CBZ format (which, yes, you can find legit comics in those formats).

Plus the pricing. It is as much or cheaper to get a paper copy. Plus with the paper copy, you still have the potential increase in value. I know my comic collection I can resell and profit off it, where as you can't resell comics, let alone even break even.

Comics are still something I feel that the digital version offer little reason to switch.

and with digital you don't know if you will lose your library of comics if you stray from that platform/device in future

Anke Wehner · 04-24-2011, 04:46 AM

... which would be solved if publisher just started letting people buy downloads of cbz or cbr files, what with those being renamed zip or rar archives, respectively.

Crowl · 04-25-2011, 07:09 AM

Personally, I would be fine with the setup marvel has online where they charge a yearly subscription rather than per issue, that system just needs a more intuitive interface and needs to be applicable to the tablet/phone versions too.

Hellmark · 04-25-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

... which would be solved if publisher just started letting people buy downloads of cbz or cbr files, what with those being renamed zip or rar archives, respectively.

That would require them to not use DRM. They're not letting people download stuff at all on most comic platforms, let alone DRM free files.

Blue Tyson · 04-25-2011, 08:51 PM

Yep, which suggests possibilities :-

1) They don't think comic readers deserve as 'good' a product as book readers or music listeners
2) They are so dumb they think millions of people will email/transfer their DRM files to each other that won't work
3) Comics somehow need more protection because they are so valuable
4) They think people don't give a crap about backing up their stuff
5) They still don't want to sell them at all, really

1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 would mean the lot of them are batshit crazy, 4 is likely true but they are obviously wrong. 5 is definitely true, currently.

Interestingly, Top Cow seems to experiment with this more - you can buy their comics at DriveThruComics etc., but not in standard cbr, they are PDFs with watermarks, but no DRM. Some free issues, too - some number 1's etc.

The other thing of course in general is they don't sell the new latest work at all, whether in the yearly subscription thing like Marvel, or by issue. Unlike book and music sellers. Or game sellers. So I wonder if part of their decline in interest recently is that competing media is whipping them and taking some of that market due to greater availability and usability.

Frida Fantastic · 04-26-2011, 03:45 AM

... and so the piracy of comics continues to thrive.

I've read quite a bit of comics, but I've never actually purchased a single one. I borrowed a lot from friends and read a lot of fan-translated manga back when I was into that stuff. $2.99 per issue of fluff is darn silly, I could get a great ebook at that price. While comics and books aren't the same exact products, they offer a similar kind of entertainment, and I think all these big companies need to shape up in order to attract those who aren't die hard fans.

Digital piracy needs to be approached like "the accidental guerilla" (sorry, been reading Kilcullen). You can't stop everyone from pirating, but you can stop the majority from doing so if you offer a better product. Crackdowns music industry style doesn't do anything useful, it just makes companies look like The Man, resulting more folks who pirate out of spite.

I would like to have the opportunity to buy comics, but I like digital and if I don't see anything as convenient as Smashwords come around my way, I'm not going out to look for it on purpose.

mr ploppy · 04-26-2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

That would require them to not use DRM. They're not letting people download stuff at all on most comic platforms, let alone DRM free files.

I don't think it would be impossible to have DRM on CBZ files. Epub is also basically just a zip file, and that can have DRM.

Hellmark · 04-26-2011, 03:17 PM

But if they slap on DRM, it needs to be a uniform standard format, or else it isnt any better than having it completely in the cloud.

rsand27 · 04-29-2011, 01:10 AM

I think ultimately they will need to go to a subscription-based unlimited plan on back issues more than say a year old and maybe $1 for new issues on the day they are available, if a reader doesn't want to wait. Of course they need better software for that. Having an online library through a subscriber account would eliminate any need to worry about piracy, too. Just don't have the content store locally on anyone's PC. Make it all server based and you only have access to what you pay for. Set it up so multiple users can't be on an account (at least simultaneously) and they cut down on unauthorized use/distribution of their product. If they want to be really hardcore about security they could link accounts with specific IP addresses.

Alfy · 04-29-2011, 01:14 AM

Sorry, but for me, that is just the worst idea ever. I DON'T want to have to be connected all the time to access my comics. I mean, come on, what if ebooks where working that way?

The current trend of wanting to put everything on the cloud is worrying one.

Hellmark · 04-29-2011, 01:50 AM

I hate the cloud because I don't have consistent access to the net. Throughout the day, I am bouncing between classes and work, and I don't always have reception or often there will be wifi issues. Right now, one of my classes has the book accessed via a webpage, and there have been times when I've not been able to access it during class, either due to internet connection problems or server issues. When that has happened, I was SOL.

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04-23-2011, 10:29 PM	#17
Blue Tyson Blue Captain Posts: 1,595 Karma: 5000236 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Keyboard 3G,Huawei Ideos X3,Kobo Mini	Legitimate? No, of course not. But brand new work, the next day, that the companies themselves DO NOT sell, ever. Or in the small percentage of cases they do, only for one phone application in the case of Marvel, that sort of thing. And almost all in horribly slow clunky flash applications as far as the web goes.

04-23-2011, 11:05 PM	#18
rsand27 Member Posts: 13 Karma: 494856 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Device: Android	Digital comics definitely need to be cheaper. Readers are already complaining about the increasing cost of print comics. DC and Marvel have even been advertising the $2.99 price like some kind of great service for their readers after the $3.99 price tag didn't pan out. If you look at the history of comic books, they never had such drastic price increases as they have over the last 20 years. I started collecting comics 20 years ago at $0.75. They had been $0.75 for some time. Before that, 60, 50, 40, 30, 25, 20, 15, 12, 10 (going back to the 30s/40s). In 50 years there were small incremental price increases (and considerable page reductions). In the last 20 years the price has skyrocketed to $3.99 for some 20-page stories. Many critics of the industry today note the decreasing quality of content, as stories are stuffed with filler to expand them into six-parts for republication in graphic novel form. In the 1970s-1990s readers received high-quality storytelling in single issue stories. Today we get six issues of fluff to go along with the increasing costs. At $2.99 per issue X 6 issues that's $18 for the same quality content we use to get stuffed into one issue for $1.50 just 10 years ago. With print comics, they can argue the cost of paper, ink, storage, and distribution. How digital comics are the same price is mind-boggling. And the back issue pricing, as others have noted is not in tune with the market. I purchase very few new comics anymore. I wait for the comic convention to come around each year and buy everything I missed for 25-50 cents per book from retailer overstock. This approach fails me occasionally when an issue is "hot" and hits a significantly higher price point than the cover cost, but with all "hot" modern era comics, they cool down by the following year. I would say this is due to the gimmicky nature of comic today. All the "hot" items are spawned out of ridiculous "event" stories that kill, then later revive, a major character. Those books lose their demand fast.

04-24-2011, 03:04 AM	#19
Blue Tyson Blue Captain Posts: 1,595 Karma: 5000236 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Keyboard 3G,Huawei Ideos X3,Kobo Mini	Having high priced old stuff is odd, certainly - given that they make zero money from them now, the publishers that is, as compared to retailers, so it could be part of appeasement of the latter. And you are right about the prices now, even getting them shipped across the planet you can get stuff for $1 each or less from places like Mile High Comics. Actual comic shops that price your garden variety back issue in the USA at cover price or even 2/3 of cover price (or equivalent ratio in other countries) will never sell most of them either It is interesting how other media companies use georestrictions, but they won't. e.g. to sell to countries that don't have comic shops. The 2.99 to 3.99 jump is the strangest thing. Presumably they are going on the psychological theory of the .99 so 3.25 or 3.35 or whatever doesn't matter. Might have got away with it better in stages, with pricing variety. Given that webshops will have no problem with .15 or 3.19 or whatever pricing and I am also pretty sure that comic book employees can still handle the concepts of 20c 25c, 50c and do the change thing it is rather strange. Colouring of course has made quantum leaps via technology - but with computer assistance, so presumably is not too much different in cost to cover price ratio than it used to be, or it wouldn't happen. Pencillers and inkers still do the same thing, if with different tools, and actually have more work to do with the padding that you mention, and writers and letterers less.

04-24-2011, 04:46 AM	#21
Anke Wehner Addict Posts: 249 Karma: 177956 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Germany Device: PRS-650	... which would be solved if publisher just started letting people buy downloads of cbz or cbr files, what with those being renamed zip or rar archives, respectively.

04-25-2011, 07:09 AM	#22
Crowl Wizard Posts: 1,340 Karma: 1160346 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Southport, GB Device: Kindle Voyage, PW Signature edition	Personally, I would be fine with the setup marvel has online where they charge a yearly subscription rather than per issue, that system just needs a more intuitive interface and needs to be applicable to the tablet/phone versions too.

04-25-2011, 08:51 PM	#24
Blue Tyson Blue Captain Posts: 1,595 Karma: 5000236 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Keyboard 3G,Huawei Ideos X3,Kobo Mini	Yep, which suggests possibilities :- 1) They don't think comic readers deserve as 'good' a product as book readers or music listeners 2) They are so dumb they think millions of people will email/transfer their DRM files to each other that won't work 3) Comics somehow need more protection because they are so valuable 4) They think people don't give a crap about backing up their stuff 5) They still don't want to sell them at all, really 1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 would mean the lot of them are batshit crazy, 4 is likely true but they are obviously wrong. 5 is definitely true, currently. Interestingly, Top Cow seems to experiment with this more - you can buy their comics at DriveThruComics etc., but not in standard cbr, they are PDFs with watermarks, but no DRM. Some free issues, too - some number 1's etc. The other thing of course in general is they don't sell the new latest work at all, whether in the yearly subscription thing like Marvel, or by issue. Unlike book and music sellers. Or game sellers. So I wonder if part of their decline in interest recently is that competing media is whipping them and taking some of that market due to greater availability and usability.

04-26-2011, 03:45 AM	#25
Frida Fantastic SF/F book blogger Posts: 270 Karma: 502030 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Vancouver, Canada Device: Kindle 3	... and so the piracy of comics continues to thrive. I've read quite a bit of comics, but I've never actually purchased a single one. I borrowed a lot from friends and read a lot of fan-translated manga back when I was into that stuff. $2.99 per issue of fluff is darn silly, I could get a great ebook at that price. While comics and books aren't the same exact products, they offer a similar kind of entertainment, and I think all these big companies need to shape up in order to attract those who aren't die hard fans. Digital piracy needs to be approached like "the accidental guerilla" (sorry, been reading Kilcullen). You can't stop everyone from pirating, but you can stop the majority from doing so if you offer a better product. Crackdowns music industry style doesn't do anything useful, it just makes companies look like The Man, resulting more folks who pirate out of spite. I would like to have the opportunity to buy comics, but I like digital and if I don't see anything as convenient as Smashwords come around my way, I'm not going out to look for it on purpose.

04-26-2011, 03:17 PM	#27
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,549 Karma: 3799999 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: O'Fallon, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3	But if they slap on DRM, it needs to be a uniform standard format, or else it isnt any better than having it completely in the cloud.

04-29-2011, 01:10 AM	#28
rsand27 Member Posts: 13 Karma: 494856 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Device: Android	I think ultimately they will need to go to a subscription-based unlimited plan on back issues more than say a year old and maybe $1 for new issues on the day they are available, if a reader doesn't want to wait. Of course they need better software for that. Having an online library through a subscriber account would eliminate any need to worry about piracy, too. Just don't have the content store locally on anyone's PC. Make it all server based and you only have access to what you pay for. Set it up so multiple users can't be on an account (at least simultaneously) and they cut down on unauthorized use/distribution of their product. If they want to be really hardcore about security they could link accounts with specific IP addresses.

04-29-2011, 01:14 AM	#29
Alfy Liseur de Bonne Aventure Posts: 374 Karma: 2176666 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Paris, France Device: PRS T1	Sorry, but for me, that is just the worst idea ever. I DON'T want to have to be connected all the time to access my comics. I mean, come on, what if ebooks where working that way? The current trend of wanting to put everything on the cloud is worrying one.

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04-29-2011, 01:50 AM	#30
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,549 Karma: 3799999 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: O'Fallon, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3	I hate the cloud because I don't have consistent access to the net. Throughout the day, I am bouncing between classes and work, and I don't always have reception or often there will be wifi issues. Right now, one of my classes has the book accessed via a webpage, and there have been times when I've not been able to access it during class, either due to internet connection problems or server issues. When that has happened, I was SOL.