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Old 08-14-2017, 01:01 PM   #31
JSWolf
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Hitch, are you sureyou are using the term kerning correctly? Kerning works just fine with my H2O using RMDSK and a font that supports kerning.
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:22 PM   #32
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Hitch, are you sureyou are using the term kerning correctly? Kerning works just fine with my H2O using RMDSK and a font that supports kerning.
Jon:

Really? C'mon. Yes, Jon, i'm sure that I'm using it correctly. Let me ask you this: you kern a font, the way that The Grand Mouse suggests, say, -0.2em.

What happens when you change the font sizes, or change the font? If you go from, say, Garamond to Trebuchet? Given that every bloody font has its own kerning tables, (I'm assuming proper foundry fonts, not the vast ocean of cruft you find online that can't spell "kerning," must less set it up for a font), etc. how can that possibly work, across fonts?

Seriously, I'm not arguing. If that can work, groovy. But how?

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Old 08-14-2017, 03:17 PM   #33
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Forget changing fonts--what happens when someone sizes the font? Up, or down? The kerning will be a car wreck.
Well, by specifying the kerning amount in terms of the font size, the spacing will automatically resize with the font size.

But it's the switching of fonts that kills it.

Ebooks really need better rendering software for that level of typography.
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:28 PM   #34
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Well, by specifying the kerning amount in terms of the font size, the spacing will automatically resize with the font size.

But it's the switching of fonts that kills it.

Ebooks really need better rendering software for that level of typography.
Grand Mouse:

There are assumptions in there, however. Assumptions that the relative size, etc. the proportionality, of the fonts, will stay the same, as the font is enlarged. I'm not sure I believe that, not to the degree that is needed, for successful kerning. I also don't know--and this is probably just ignorance, on my part, as I'm not a programmer of the rendering engines--how justification algorithms can (or don't) affect the layout, proportionality, etc. of the fonts. It's one thing for InDesign to do it--a program dedicated to layout--and another for the El Cheapo EReader software to do it, on the fly.

And yes, switching fonts is certainly a Kiss of Death. If we set them so that they cannot be overridden, you'll either have unhappy (gruesomely) readers, or retailers, or worse, both.

Just saying.

Anyway, we probably ought to drift back ON topic, as this isn't what the OP asked. Not that drifting OT is new to Sigil, of course.

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Old 08-14-2017, 03:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Hitch, are you sureyou are using the term kerning correctly? Kerning works just fine with my H2O using RMDSK and a font that supports kerning.
The definition varies with "environment", so it is hard to pin down. "Kerning" in CSS terms is not what "kerning" means in standard electronic typography and the meaning is somewhat different when discussing hand set metal type.

Outside of the CSS world, "kerning" only refers to custom letterspacing between specific pairs of characters.The "kerning" done by RMDSK is this type of spacing and it requires that the font file contain a table of character pairs and their associated spacing adjustment. Global spacing changes across a range of characters is "tracking" in the general electronic typesetting world. With metal type, "kerning" is limited to custom reduction of spacing between specific character pair and is not the appropriate term when there is an increase in the spacing, whether between specific pairs or a range of characters.

There are similar varying definitions of "font" between the 3 worlds.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:09 PM   #36
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The definition varies with "environment", so it is hard to pin down. "Kerning" in CSS terms is not what "kerning" means in standard electronic typography and the meaning is somewhat different when discussing hand set metal type.

Outside of the CSS world, "kerning" only refers to custom letterspacing between specific pairs of characters.The "kerning" done by RMDSK is this type of spacing and it requires that the font file contain a table of character pairs and their associated spacing adjustment. Global spacing changes across a range of characters is "tracking" in the general electronic typesetting world. With metal type, "kerning" is limited to custom reduction of spacing between specific character pair and is not the appropriate term when there is an increase in the spacing, whether between specific pairs or a range of characters.

There are similar varying definitions of "font" between the 3 worlds.
You're absolutely right, and I should have mentioned that. There's a massive difference between tightening ALL the letters in a document, and kerning pairs, etc. I didn't think to bring it up, but you are of course smart to do so, as we are effectively discussing night and day.

Spoiler:
We recently ran into an issue, around "enhanced typsetting" vis-a-vis Amazon providing kerning via ligature pairs, in a text in which we certainly had not. That's fine, if they can always control the font environment--which they can't. Gave our client a world of heartburn. Can't say more than that, but same thing--two different fonts with *different* kerning pairs and ligatures.

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Old 08-14-2017, 04:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dwig View Post
"kerning" only refers to custom letterspacing between specific pairs of characters.
Thank you! I had to bite my tongue yesterday to keep from saying that. It's like "left-justified" and "right-justified" and who knows? maybe even "center justified". Or the belief that an apostrophe is a prime mark.

To its credit, Apache OpenOffice Writer gets kerning v. tracking right.
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Old 08-14-2017, 05:02 PM   #38
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Thank you! I had to bite my tongue yesterday to keep from saying that. It's like "left-justified" and "right-justified" and who knows? maybe even "center justified". Or the belief that an apostrophe is a prime mark.

To its credit, Apache OpenOffice Writer gets kerning v. tracking right.
You should have. I'd completely spaced that we were all discussing (possibly) apples/oranges. Saved me from stepping on my own, well, you know.

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Old 08-14-2017, 07:58 PM   #39
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Just an aside, a large first letter can botch ligatures if the first letter and the next make up a ligature pair.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:08 PM   #40
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Just an aside, a large first letter can botch ligatures if the first letter and the next make up a ligature pair.
OMG, don't get me started about ligatures. Anyone who does ligatures in an uncontrolled e-book environment is crazy. What happens if Suzie buys the book and changes the font to something else--that doesn't have a ligature set?
If you can't control the fonts, it's a possible KOD. (Kiss O'Death). (We recently had an experience with a book showing up, with ligature issues, and I'm still yanking my hair out of my noggin.) We never make eBooks with ligatures, excepting fixed-layout. Period.

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Old 08-14-2017, 09:23 PM   #41
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OMG, don't get me started about ligatures. Anyone who does ligatures in an uncontrolled e-book environment is crazy. What happens if Suzie buys the book and changes the font to something else--that doesn't have a ligature set?
If you can't control the fonts, it's a possible KOD. (Kiss O'Death). (We recently had an experience with a book showing up, with ligature issues, and I'm still yanking my hair out of my noggin.) We never make eBooks with ligatures, excepting fixed-layout. Period.

Hitch
So how do you control ligatures? If I use a font that has ligatures, I get ligatures if the letter pair says to use a ligature in place of the letter pair.

It's that way for RMDSK and KFX.
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Old 08-14-2017, 10:56 PM   #42
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So how do you control ligatures? If I use a font that has ligatures, I get ligatures if the letter pair says to use a ligature in place of the letter pair.

It's that way for RMDSK and KFX.
Wolfie: what do you mean? Oh, how do you get rid of them? I bloody well regex their little paired asses right out. With as many print books as we do, and books from INDD, we have to do that about 4x daily. I don't quite know what you're doing there, big guy, but ligatures are a choice, not a default.

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Old 08-15-2017, 06:19 AM   #43
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Wolfie: what do you mean? Oh, how do you get rid of them? I bloody well regex their little paired asses right out. With as many print books as we do, and books from INDD, we have to do that about 4x daily. I don't quite know what you're doing there, big guy, but ligatures are a choice, not a default.

Hitch
How do you regex out ligatures? There are no ligatures in them. You have letter pairs such as f & l fl that get converted to the ligature by the reading software. I think your use of the term ligature is not what everyone else is using.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:22 AM   #44
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Just an aside, a large first letter can botch ligatures if the first letter and the next make up a ligature pair.
I would have thought that any decent rendering engine would have the sense not to use a ligature if the two letters of the pair had different styles applied to them.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:39 PM   #45
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How do you regex out ligatures? There are no ligatures in them. You have letter pairs such as f & l fl that get converted to the ligature by the reading software. I think your use of the term ligature is not what everyone else is using.
You know, Jon, maybe you don't realize it, but I think you've kind of insulted me twice now, on this thread, about ligatures. Do you think you could take a moment, on your next post, and make sure you're not inadvertently trying to get up my nose? TY. I realize that you think of me being geeky, and not print-layout-y, but I'm not a total moron.

UTF-8. If you export ligatures, you get UTF-8.

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I would have thought that any decent rendering engine would have the sense not to use a ligature if the two letters of the pair had different styles applied to them.
As in? You mean, applying styles, to a ligature only, Harry, or am I misunderstanding you?

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