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Old Yesterday, 04:46 PM   #256
ploum
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Remember, we are not discussing grammar but UX design.

Regardless of what the actual sentence is, if a good percentage of your users is confused, then the UX is wrong. The mere fact that this thread exists is the proof that this particular UX is bad.

So Kobo should either fix the screen to make clear what will happen or should fix the software to do what people expect. I*don't find unreasonable to expect an option disabling all automatic syncing but that may be my opinion and, when designing an UX, those expectations have to be validated against facts.

PS: having professional experience in the UX field, I*can say that Kobo UX range from utterly horrible to bad. They really lack some good UX*designers. The only reason while I'm sticking with Kobo is that all the other ereaders I've tested are at least as bad. It seems that no good UX*designer want to work with eink devices.
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Old Yesterday, 04:51 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by JeanPierre View Post
Under "Syncing and updates", there is "BACKGROUND SYNC". Under that there is "Automatic sync" and the description below says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date".

I believe my reading comprehension is excellent, and I expected that disabling "Automatic sync" would disable all automatic syncing. The sync that occurs when wifi is enabled is not a manual sync, it is automatic, and contrary to my own expectations of the device's behaviour when this option is disabled.
For me, it means the daily sync, sorry, as the text states. Nothing more, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by JeanPierre View Post
I think it might be worth addressing the elephant in the room at this point. What data is transferred to Kobo during a sync? I think I remember reading months ago that the contents of the Event database table is uploaded. Is this correct?
I don't guess it. Sorry, I don't understand the real meaning, not joking.
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Old Yesterday, 05:59 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by ploum View Post

Regardless of what the actual sentence is, if a good percentage of your users is confused, then the UX is wrong..
I'm not at all sure where you get the sense that a good percentage are confused.

The users here at MobileRead I would not consider representative of the typical user of eReaders.


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Old Yesterday, 11:22 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
Having read through this thread plus several of your other posts, I find your belief that turning off a scheduled sync should disable all syncs to be a trifle disingenuous.

...

For me, the sync when I open some screens is handy since I do borrow library books and that syncs them to my ereader. The sync at the end of a book updates time and pages read counters. I vaguely remember that you will also get a sync in the middle of a book depending on how long it takes to read.
If you really expect your device to sync this frequently without your explicit invocation, what is the point of having a scheduled sync at all? It seems to me that the device would sync itself frequently enough just by happenstance as you go about your business using the device.

Same question to the others that follow this line of thinking.

I find it stretches credulity that a non-technical end user unfamiliar with the inner workings of the device to infer this the same way as you. If anything is atypical about this group of Kobo users, it's that some of you are significantly more experienced with the device than the typical user, and I think this is colouring your expectations of how the average user will interpret what's meant by the messages in the settings.

The average user will interpret disabling automatic sync to mean that all syncs henceforth will require manual invocation. End of story.

In order to infer otherwise, the user would need to be aware of other circumstances under which the device could justifiably be expected to sync without the user's invocation. I believe that many of you are too experienced and knowledgeable to recognise this.

Last edited by JeanPierre; Yesterday at 11:56 PM.
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Old Today, 01:00 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by JeanPierre View Post
If you really expect your device to sync this frequently without your explicit invocation, what is the point of having a scheduled sync at all? It seems to me that the device would sync itself frequently enough just by happenstance as you go about your business using the device.
Because designs change. Because things like the likely availability of a WiFi network change. Because someone added something they thought would solve a problem (scheduled sync) and found out it didn't (need to have all the books on the device).

The scheduled sync was added first. Some time later, the sync-when-doing-stuff was added. Because of user demand. At that point, the scheduled sync became less important. But, removing it takes work. It still works and until a good reason comes along, there is no reason to remove it.
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Same question to the others that follow this line of thinking.

I find it stretches credulity that a non-technical end user unfamiliar with the inner workings of the device to infer this the same way as you. If anything is atypical about this group of Kobo users, it's that some of you are significantly more experienced with the device than the typical user, and I think this is colouring your expectations of how the average user will interpret what's meant by the messages in the settings.

The average user will interpret disabling automatic sync to mean that all syncs henceforth will require manual invocation. End of story.

In order to infer otherwise, the user would need to be aware of other circumstances under which the device could justifiably be expected to sync without the user's invocation. I believe that many of you are too experienced and knowledgeable to recognise this.
And yes, a lot of people here have interpreted it that way. But, once you make a change, and it doesn't do what you thought it did, don't you have another look and see why? At that point you actually read everything on the screen and it might twig that it wasn't the option you were after. No matter how badly that option is worded, it does one thing. And all the information needed to know what it actually does is on that screen.

And am I allowed to be amused by the fact we are talking about an ereader. A device for reading books. A device that simple ownership and use implies people are literate. But, we are talking about the fact that these people don't actually read the stuff in front of them.
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Old Today, 01:28 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
And yes, a lot of people here have interpreted it that way. But, once you make a change, and it doesn't do what you thought it did, don't you have another look and see why? At that point you actually read everything on the screen and it might twig that it wasn't the option you were after. No matter how badly that option is worded, it does one thing. And all the information needed to know what it actually does is on that screen.
What is the option that we are after? We being those of us that wish to enable wifi to use, say, the browser but never have the device sync? Is there one?

The section in the options is entitled "BACKGROUND SYNC", has one checkbox, and yet there appears to be no way to completely disable background syncing when wifi is enabled.

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And am I allowed to be amused by the fact we are talking about an ereader. A device for reading books. A device that simple ownership and use implies people are literate. But, we are talking about the fact that these people don't actually read the stuff in front of them.
What amuses you is your business, but I would have thought the tone of this was beneath you. I don't think it's a case of people not reading the messages in front of them. The longest description says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date". It is not reasonable to infer from this that there will be other non-daily automatic syncs executed without user invocation.

Let us consider a hypothetical that uses the same language to see it if it will make it more clear. Let's say your phone has an option to automatically download free music into your music library released daily with a checkbox that says "Automatic free music download", and a message below it that says "When daily Automatic free music download is enabled, your music library will remain up to date with the latest free music available in the music store". Do you also think it's reasonable to infer from that language that you can expect unwanted music to be downloaded to your music library whenever your phone feels like it?

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Old Today, 02:05 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by FrustratedReader View Post
Because I have not bought one EVER from Kobo.
It's doing sync at home screen and in middle of reading.
Yes, it is supposed to do a sync when you go to the home screen. If it hasn't done one within the last 30 minutes. And as to a sync when you are in the middle of reading, that's just when you noticed it was happening. It probably started as you found the book and took a bit longer than usual.
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I have no understanding why you are defending what is either a bug or stupidity on Kobo's part.
Please, and do it explicitly by quoting it, where I am defending Kobo. At all times I am only trying to explain how it actually works. Not how you I think it should work, which is all you seem to be concerned with.

But, and this is still not defending Kobo, it is not a bug. It is a deliberate design choice on Kobo's part. The reason I know that, is because I asked Kobo. I have no interest in going into whether it is a good or bad decision.
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Almost anyone would assume that turning off sync turns it off. Selecting something like the shop, or suggestions, or "pocket" might be expected to connect.
An how many people would see that there is a sync when opening the Pocket article and wonder why that doesn't happen when their book list is opened? For someone who only got books from Kobo, that would make complete sense.
Quote:
On almost every device in the last 30 years "sync" has a more specific meaning.

Please stop on so many posts defending either Kobo bugs or stupid design decisions. If sync when you are simply at home screen or reading an already open book is not a bug, but intended then that is really really worse behaviour by Kobo. Nothing else I have does it.
And please stop accusing me of doing something I am not doing. Again, point to where I have defended Kobo bugs. Or stupid design choices.

And stop deciding that the way that you would do it is the only way it can be done. That is what you are saying here and in just about all of your posts on this forum. You think it should work one way, therefore everyone should think it works that way.
Quote:
Edit:
I've not seen it sync when I've opened the book list. Which makes sense as I have no Kobo books.
Whether you currently have purchased books on the device doesn't affect whether it tries to sync. It just affects how much data is synced. And if you haven't noticed it when you opened the book list, it is probably simply because it hasn't been 30 minutes since the last syncs. And you probably just weren't looking for it. But, the next time you open the book list, and sync doesn't start after a few seconds, tap the sync button and look at the time. 30 minutes minimum between syncs.


Last comment. If you think this is bad design, or even a bug, then do something about it. Complain to Kobo. Report it as a problem. They do listen. They do make changes based on user feedback. But, remember, they might not agree with you. Or, while you are suggesting something, someone else is probably suggesting something different.
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Old Today, 03:06 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanPierre View Post
What is the option that we are after? We being those of us that wish to enable wifi to use, say, the browser but never have the device sync? Is there one?

The section in the options is entitled "BACKGROUND SYNC", has one checkbox, and yet there appears to be no way to completely disable background syncing when wifi is enabled.
You are completely right, there is no option to turn off all syncs. Should there be? Possibly. Does the existing sync related option need better explanation about what it is? Yes.

But, here is the thing. At the moment, there is only one option available about syncing. It does something specific. There is enough information on the settings dialog to work out what it does. Especially after someone tries it and it doesn't do what you (meaning you, JeanPierre in this case) thinks it does. And, no matter how hard everyone argues that this option should do something else, it doesn't do that thing. This is all that I have been arguing about.
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What amuses you is your business, but I would have thought the tone of this was beneath you. I don't think it's a case of people not reading the messages in front of them. The longest description says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date". It is not reasonable to infer from this that there will be other non-daily automatic syncs executed without user invocation.

Let us consider a hypothetical that uses the same language to see it if it will make it more clear. Let's say your phone has an option to automatically download free music into your music library released daily with a checkbox that says "Automatic free music download", and a message below it that says "When daily Automatic free music download is enabled, your music library will remain up to date with the latest free music available in the music store". Do you also think it's reasonable to infer from that language that you can expect unwanted music to be downloaded to your music library whenever your phone feels like it?
Please go back and read my posts. I have said at least a couple of times that I agree that the Sync settings page isn't completely clear. And I agree that if you quickly look at that page, it is understandable that someone might misinterpret it. But, the setting doesn't work that way. And it is unreasonable that once someone discovers that something doesn't work they way they first thought, that they don't investigate what is going on. And, as bad as the page might be, there is enough information on to work out what does if you paid any attention to what actually happened.

And for you example, probably not. But, that isn't the only thing on the screen. The timing of the syncs is there. And you are stretching the analogy. Without further explanation, that "free music" is downloading random free music. The sync on the devices is downloading things that I explicitly selected (paid for, chose free, added preview, borrowed from library). I would not expect the two downloads to work exactly the same. And to be honest, if you offer me "free" anything, I look for the catch.
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Old Today, 03:39 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
There is enough information on the settings dialog to work out what it does. Especially after someone tries it and it doesn't do what you (meaning you, JeanPierre in this case) thinks it does. And, no matter how hard everyone argues that this option should do something else, it doesn't do that thing. This is all that I have been arguing about.
Okay, if you are just saying that I should be able to work out that the option doesn't do what I expected, based on my own experience of having the option disabled and noticing that when I connect to wifi a sync I haven't prompted has been triggered, then we agree. I was able to work out that the option doesn't what I expected after it did that, which I did not expect. I was under the impression you were going a step further and saying that the language used in the settings is sufficient to infer this behaviour before having observed the device performing unexpected background syncs.

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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
Please go back and read my posts. I have said at least a couple of times that I agree that the Sync settings page isn't completely clear. And I agree that if you quickly look at that page, it is understandable that someone might misinterpret it. But, the setting doesn't work that way. And it is unreasonable that once someone discovers that something doesn't work they way they first thought, that they don't investigate what is going on. And, as bad as the page might be, there is enough information on to work out what does if you paid any attention to what actually happened.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
And for you example, probably not. But, that isn't the only thing on the screen. The timing of the syncs is there. And you are stretching the analogy. Without further explanation, that "free music" is downloading random free music. The sync on the devices is downloading things that I explicitly selected (paid for, chose free, added preview, borrowed from library). I would not expect the two downloads to work exactly the same. And to be honest, if you offer me "free" anything, I look for the catch.
Admittedly the analogy isn't perfect, and I am imposing my own motivation to not have the data contained my the Event table of my database transmitted to Kobo without my explicit consent. Hence the analogy attempting to make the issue about consent.

I thank you for the information you provided that details how the background syncing behaviour came about following user feedback, and that the background sync settings page predates that. I also appreciate that you're very pragmatic, knowledgeable and helpful when you post here, and want to solve problems, while some of us just want to vent and point problems out That was all I wanted to do in this case: point out something I think is a problem, and now that I have, I will leave it at that
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Old Today, 06:14 AM   #265
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Gee, this thread is getting a bit heated. And I have to remind myself what this thread is about!

So, getting back to the theme of this thread, which is Kobo Firmware 4.12.12111, might I suggest a solution to the sync issue would be to develop a patch for an option to disable ALL syncing? It seems those who are unhappy with things related to syncing, would simply like to switch off ALL syncing, whether automatic, manual, or anything else.

It doesn’t matter whether it is a Kobo bug or a Kobo feature, a patch would allow you to do your own thing, if that is what you want. End of argument.
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Old Today, 06:42 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by ploum View Post
PS: having professional experience in the UX field, I*can say that Kobo UX range from utterly horrible to bad. They really lack some good UX*designers. The only reason while I'm sticking with Kobo is that all the other ereaders I've tested are at least as bad. It seems that no good UX*designer want to work with eink devices.
I think Android is poor. I think Win10 must rate as worst MS GUI since Windows 2.x
Win10 is the worst GUI I've seen EVER. And I did play with a Xerox workstation in 1970s.
Curiously if 10 is binary, that's 2.

Really it's not hard. I've done better GUIs than Kindle & Kobo on Mono 1bit (no grey) LCD panels.
I think Marketing has too much input.
Stupid laser print style Flat Web design has a lot to answer for.

Even things like dead space between letters on the touch keyboard on Kobo is wrong. I do think the Kindle GUI and SW generally is better now than KOBO, though really poor. Better GUIs & Features on Win3.x and DOS GUI styled library and document management systems over 20 years ago.
Collections/Shelves etc poor. Why does no-one do the three levels used on Amazon, Smashwords and paper book categories?
Why is it so painful to organise books. Do they test this stuff with only a couple of dozen books? Even a basic internal storage eReader can have a few thousand books.

Anyway. This firmware is really slow for text selection to add notes. I'm tempted to build my own eInk add on for a Raspbery PI it's so bad. The Kindle is quick to highlight & add notes, but the lack of detail compared to Koboo makes the Kindle annotation export useless.

Also why hard code in Facebook on everything? They are currently illegally using data in EU. Why not ANY link in account settings with user title? Why also no email out (a weblink could do that). Why hard code Google (currently fined and still breaking law) or Wikipedia?
DRM and copyright is no excuse as there is fair use and content might be public domain or have permission etc.

These devices can cost twice price of a phone or tablet. We buy them. We should have control over what they do. Not a committee or marketing person in Amazon or Kobo. The changes needed to make these more user friendly, less buggy, more user control in account & device & reader settings is very little work.

Despite what some say, neither Amazon nor Kobo much listen, nor admit deliberate shortcomings.

If I was only reading, I'd only use the Amazon Kindle PW3, or maybe the Sony PRS350 when out of the house.
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Old Today, 06:51 AM   #267
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Old Today, 08:04 AM   #268
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https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8740191.html
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...50m_cnil_gdpr/
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...t_gdpr_rights/
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...ostly_unaware/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ions_by_Amazon
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...petition_data/
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/1...book_disaster/
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/1...ing_companies/

Three issues with many gadgets:
1) Breaking EU laws. Actually Google, Facebook, ICANN etc breaking EU law for about 12 years BEFORE GDPR came in

2) Usability, user control and GUI is actually going backwards.

3) Poor design and testing. Not just SW or GUI but hardware ergonomics too. Cost reduction and appearance trumping functionality.

There is more concentration on static appearance, acquiring user behaviour and advertising than delivering what users think they are buying.

This current firmware is symptomatic of the industry. It rates a 3 out of 10.
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Old Today, 08:14 AM   #269
davidfor
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Posts: 15,927
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo,Aura H2O,Glo HD,Aura ONE,Clara HD,Forma;tolino epos
@FrustratedReader: If you want to discuss those sort of things, please start a separate thread. This thread, and similar, are about changes in, and issues with specific firmware version. The discussion about how Kobo does syncing went off topic. But, your last couple of posts do not belong here.
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