Footnote problem in kepub conversion

[theducks]

@Liudprand We are here to try and help each other.
MR has different sections that focus on topics for writers or publishers like yourself.

Calibre is a tool originally aimed at storing books and making them compatible with many devices. (It grew way past that ) It is NOT intended as an authoring tool.

I use the Editor as a touchup tool rather than trying to make Conversion (of the same or different format) do the lifting blind(ish)/trial & Error. I find I can use the Editor to find and debug most visual oddities faster than it took you to log onto MR and post a coherent query on how to get convert to do it.

Most of the code is basic HTML (not the full set used on Web Pages). SIMPLE. There are a few tutorials here on MR. (FWIW I hardly knew anything about decent HTML and no CSS when I first came here. I thank the many folk that helped me along the way)

Do as much as possible with the CSS file, avoiding inline STYLE= as much as possible. Did you notice I underlined FILE? That is because you could put that code at the top of each (x)HTML file. But that leads to inconsistencies between chapters 1 (CSS) file to rule ALL of your book make tuneups easy.

MR Writers corner is more aimed at the craft of writing and marketing. Great folk, who have been in the game for a while. And a number of PRO's (both in formatting and Writing) provide input to polite queries.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by Quoth

You can't or shouldn't exactly duplicate how a paper book works as an ebook. It does links back and forth well. But you absolutely can't mimic the paper style of a source for a footnote. People need a larger area to tap on.

The ONLY sensible way to do it is how I suggest. I know it's more work, but it's far better quality, more reliable and safer to manually number.

Word (and InDesign) are designed for paper. Both predate ebooks (InDesign is ancient and kludged and may have bits of Pagemaker in it). Though ebooks are based on HTML and CSS, they certainly don't work the same way as web pages or web sites.

I've been creating content on computers since 1979 and used to teach this stuff. Do things to suit epub and get a Sage 8″ Kobo to proof on and copy back annotations to Calibre, then copy/paste to a text editor window beside Word or LO Writer.
It's then trivial to edit styles and page formats of a copy of Word/LO file to suit paper/POD/PDF. Working the other way (editing & styling for paper and trying to get an epub to work) is very very much harder.

It makes no difference that you are editing OCR from an old paper edition rather than writing from scratch. It just means the creative bit is replaced by proof comparison with the paper.

Thanks again for the reply.

I should say that I simply disagree about the "larger area to tap on" thing. I have a vast collection of nonfiction ebooks (around 7,000), largely because of my work. I don't think any of them has more than just the footnote cue as tappable. And I get what you mean - occasionally I miss it. But generally I don't find it a problem. And, as I say, I have yet to come across a single example of a professionally produced nonfiction book that does what you suggest (i.e. also including the last word in the sentence, as well as the cue - if I understand you correctly?).

Also, the vast majority of the books I'm talking about have note sequences within chapters, rather than spanning the entire book (what I mean is: I don't recall a single case where the latter style is applied, though I'm sure they're out there). I guess that's one of the reasons why I assumed there must be a simple way to do that.

I'm afraid I don't fully understand what you mean here:

... get a Sage 8″ Kobo to proof on and copy back annotations to Calibre, then copy/paste to a text editor window beside Word or LO Writer.
It's then trivial to edit styles and page formats of a copy of Word/LO file to suit paper/POD/PDF. Working the other way (editing & styling for paper and trying to get an epub to work) is very very much harder.

For example, I don't see how annotations are relevant? I've already used Calibre to convert the pdf into docx, where I've done all the editing. Which might be slow or inefficient for some people, but it's what I'm most used to and (except on this one point!) works perfectly well. I have a Libra 2, which I believe has the same screen dimensions as the Sage, and the thing I mentioned above (just the note cue linked) works fine on that.

Again, though, thanks for your help.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by theducks

@Liudprand We are here to try and help each other.
MR has different sections that focus on topics for writers or publishers like yourself.

Calibre is a tool originally aimed at storing books and making them compatible with many devices. (It grew way past that ) It is NOT intended as an authoring tool.

I use the Editor as a touchup tool rather than trying to make Conversion (of the same or different format) do the lifting blind(ish)/trial & Error. I find I can use the Editor to find and debug most visual oddities faster than it took you to log onto MR and post a coherent query on how to get convert to do it.

Most of the code is basic HTML (not the full set used on Web Pages). SIMPLE. There are a few tutorials here on MR. (FWIW I hardly knew anything about decent HTML and no CSS when I first came here. I thank the many folk that helped me along the way)

Do as much as possible with the CSS file, avoiding inline STYLE= as much as possible. Did you notice I underlined FILE? That is because you could put that code at the top of each (x)HTML file. But that leads to inconsistencies between chapters 1 (CSS) file to rule ALL of your book make tuneups easy.

MR Writers corner is more aimed at the craft of writing and marketing. Great folk, who have been in the game for a while. And a number of PRO's (both in formatting and Writing) provide input to polite queries.

Many thanks for this. I'm afraid that, where I suspect it's most useful, it's also completely over my head ("... put that code at the top of each (x)HTML file"?! I have no real idea what that means - though I'm sure I could work it out with the help of Google... ).

I guess I have to spend a couple of days watching really basic youtube videos on HTML etc. But I've generally used Calibre as a basic management (and sometimes conversion) tool, without rolling my sleeves up and tinkering with the code window in the editing panel (if that's the right way to phrase it). I literally don't have the first idea how any of that syntax works.

In case this makes my point a little clearer, here is what my thought process was:

1. As a professional editor and typesetter of printed books, and owner - or at least possessor - of a huge collection of ebooks, I noticed that pretty much every single (professionally published) book with footnotes or endnotes re-starts note numbering at the beginning of each chapter. I now understand that a lot of people on here regard that as unnecessary, or even going against the whole idea of the functionality of ebooks. But, nonetheless, it remains the standard with the overwhelming majority (perhaps all) of the many books with notes that I've acquired, both purchased and side-loaded.

2. I therefore assumed there must be some straightforward way to achieve the organisation and style of notes that I wanted, which I was just too clueless (see my above comments on HTML etc.) to have grasped.

3. So, what I guess I was expecting/hoping for was some instruction/bit of code that I would need to insert into each "section" of the epub (each separate file, I guess - but, in any case, marking the same points as were set up by the Word sections, in this case chapters), which would ensure that the note numbering started again from 1. Something functionally equivalent to this MUST exist, surely(?), given that, as I say, nearly all published nonfiction books achieve this behaviour. For me, that would have been the next-best option, short of something completely automated in the conversion process itself.

4. I now realise this isn't, apparently, available in Calibre or (nearly) anywhere else as an automated function. But - with all due respect and thanks to the people who have advised me that I shouldn't care about within-chapter note numbering - it remains something I need to achieve not only in the book I'm now working on, but probably in any similar job, because it remains the almost-universal standard in actual, published books.

Apologies for the prolixity. But maybe it's a bit clearer what I'm up to... !

[theducks]

If you must

Polish you REGEX foo and you could Search for:
"See Chapter 8, note 37"
to a Link (more work if those were not formatted consistently)
Be wary of doubles (or more) and do those first

See (Chapter \d+), note (\d+)

I included the word Chapter so it would not do any other "See..."

Note: Name the target files EXACTLY as shown (Chapter 8.HTML),
<a>href="Chapter 6.html#37</a>

<a>href="\1.html#\2</a>

Number the matching note Anchor as shown (no REGEX, because I have no clue as to what the notes code looks like)
<a>#37</a>

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by theducks

If you must

Polish you REGEX foo and you could Search for:
"See Chapter 8, note 37"
to a Link (more work if those were not formatted consistently)
Be wary of doubles (or more) and do those first

See (Chapter \d+), note (\d+)

I included the word Chapter so it would not do any other "See..."

Note: Name the target files EXACTLY as shown (Chapter 8.HTML),
<a>href="Chapter 6.html#37</a>

<a>href="\1.html#\2</a>

Number the matching note Anchor as shown (no REGEX, because I have no clue as to what the notes code looks like)
<a>#37</a>

Thanks very much for this. But I've no idea what "REGEX" means. Not your problem - clearly, I'll need to mug up on all of this stuff in order to move forward. It would be good if one of these forums was a sort of "kindergarten", where absolute, or near-absolute, beginners could share their very first steps... Until then, I shall depart for YouTube!

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Many thanks for this. I'm afraid that, where I suspect it's most useful, it's also completely over my head ("... put that code at the top of each (x)HTML file"?! I have no real idea what that means - though I'm sure I could work it out with the help of Google... ).


<Snip>

Calibre Does do this for the coverpage it makes (a valid use for a file that is not the main work) My coloring. IMHO you should NOT have this anyplace except, maybe boilerplate files. BPH's usually just have a BPH_stylsheet that is linked to their Boilerplate files they add to the Authors work)

Is it Wrong if you do? Nope. Just inefficient to maintain. The only 'wrong' is when it fails on the clients device

<head>
  <meta name="calibre:cover" content="true"/>
  <title>Cover</title>
  
<style type="text/css" title="override_css">
  @page {
    padding: 0;
    margin: 0;
  }
  body {
    text-align: center;
    padding: 0;
    margin: 0;
  }
  </style>

</head>

I've seen a full set of CSS code here and what is in the next chapter is different. That leads to a real ugly 'look' experience

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by Quoth

You can't or shouldn't exactly duplicate how a paper book works as an ebook. It does links back and forth well. But you absolutely can't mimic the paper style of a source for a footnote. People need a larger area to tap on.

Quoth - just some corroboration of what I'm talking about. If you go to the Amazon listing of Tom Holland's Dominion, you can look at the free preview of the Kindle version.

It's literally the first book I checked that includes the second chapter in the preview - chosen basically at random. The relevant couple of lines with the first note cue in Chapter 2 appear below. As you'll see, the note is numbered 1 - i.e. not numbered continuously with Chapter 1 - and only the note cue itself is formatted as a link, not any of the text that precedes it.

This remains absolutely the standard throughout professional nonfiction publishing - at least for now!

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by theducks

Calibre Does do this for the coverpage it makes (a valid use for a file that is not the main work) My coloring. IMHO you should NOT have this anyplace except, maybe boilerplate files. BPH's usually just have a BPH_stylsheet that is linked to their Boilerplate files they add to the Authors work)

Is it Wrong if you do? Nope. Just inefficient to maintain. The only 'wrong' is when it fails on the clients device

<head>
  <meta name="calibre:cover" content="true"/>
  <title>Cover</title>
  
<style type="text/css" title="override_css">
  @page {
    padding: 0;
    margin: 0;
  }
  body {
    text-align: center;
    padding: 0;
    margin: 0;
  }
  </style>

</head>

I've seen a full set of CSS code here and what is in the next chapter is different. That leads to a real ugly 'look' experience

Again, many thanks! But, again, I'll have to do a few evening classes before I understand any of this.

If, when you say "Is it Wrong if you do? Nope. Just inefficient to maintain. The only 'wrong' is when it fails on the clients device ", you're referring to the result I'm asking for - notes starting from 1 with each new chapter - I'd point you to my last couple of replies in this thread to Quoth. Within the subculture of this forum, it seems to be frowned upon as an objective - but it just happens to be the absolute, cast-iron industry-standard practice in the book world.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by theducks

Calibre Does do this for the coverpage it makes (a valid use for a file that is not the main work) My coloring. IMHO you should NOT have this anyplace except, maybe boilerplate files. BPH's usually just have a BPH_stylsheet that is linked to their Boilerplate files they add to the Authors work)

Is it Wrong if you do? Nope. Just inefficient to maintain. The only 'wrong' is when it fails on the clients device

Just to be clear, when I say I don't understand this, my problem is with the fact that the coverpage doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with my original query, about footnote numbering. I'm sure there's some connection at a technical level, which is eluding me! But the point is that the failure of understanding is, I'm sure, my deficiency, and nothing to do with your post... !

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

are these cross references not links themselves? That would be a very poor user experience, if they were not. If you use the footnote tool in word so that these are dynamic text linking to the actual footnote, the numbers in the converted document will be the correct number in the final footnote list. It wont be of chapter/note form, but again in an ebook that is pointless.

I understand lots of people on here, most importantly yourself, consider it pointless. But it's the industry standard in professional nonfiction ebook publishing, and therefore something I need to comply with - and therefore, also, something I wrongly assumed would be easy to achieve, and probably automated.

[Quoth]

But it's the industry standard in professional nonfiction ebook publishing

What is?
I'm confused.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Just to be clear, when I say I don't understand this, my problem is with the fact that the coverpage doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with my original query, about footnote numbering. I'm sure there's some connection at a technical level, which is eluding me! But the point is that the failure of understanding is, I'm sure, my deficiency, and nothing to do with your post... !

IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE STYLE CODE USAGE.
Remove your preconceived filters and you might see there are more than 1 way to get from A to B. We are trying to help you do clean code.

You have had multiple people make suggestions (and many would get it done), and you have issues with their posts ...
Some went for brute force. Some went for flexibility. All are working off of what you (can, because of copyright) post.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by Quoth

What is?
I'm confused.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Two things are standard (in my experience, universal) in the nonfiction book-publishing industry where ebooks are concerned:

1. Notes are numbered within chapters - starting from one with the first note in each chapter - not in a single sequence running throughout the book.

2. Only the note cues themselves are formatted as links, as opposed to what (I think) you were suggesting - i.e. that more than just the cue should be formatted as a link, because people need a "larger area to tap on". I can see your point here - it's just a practice that no professionally published book I'm aware of actually follows; thus, my clients want the link to apply ONLY to the note cue.

The screengrab of the Amazon sample of Tom Holland's Dominion that I provided before illustrates both of these points. If you can find a counter-example, I'd certainly be interested to see it.

I hope that's clear now?

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by theducks

IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE STYLE CODE USAGE.
Remove your preconceived filters and you might see there are more than 1 way to get from A to B. We are trying to help you do clean code.

You have had multiple people make suggestions (and many would get it done), and you have issues with their posts ...
Some went for brute force. Some went for flexibility. All are working off of what you (can, because of copyright) post.

I genuinely apologise if your impression is that I "have issues with" any of the responses - except for those from Quoth, who I just disagree with about industry practice; though I'm still very grateful for his responses, and have made that clear several times.

Other than that, the only "issue" I've had with the responses is that I don't follow them! And I've said explicitly (more than once) that that's the case - i.e. that the fault is with my level of understanding, and I have no criticisms of any of the suggestions, because... I don't understand them!

Judging - and communicating - tone is often difficult in online spaces, I reallise. All I can do is assure you that the only response I intended to convey to all the helpful suggestions is gratitude, with a side of bafflement.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Two things are standard (in my experience, universal) in the nonfiction book-publishing industry where ebooks are concerned:

1. Notes are numbered within chapters - starting from one with the first note in each chapter - not in a single sequence running throughout the book.

2. Only the note cues themselves are formatted as links, as opposed to what (I think) you were suggesting - i.e. that more than just the cue should be formatted as a link, because people need a "larger area to tap on". I can see your point here - it's just a practice that no professionally published book I'm aware of actually follows; thus, my clients want the link to apply ONLY to the note cue.

What I suggested allows 1. or indeed ANY scheme of labelling the notes.

On 2., that's not true. A link that's only a paper style superscript isn't an industry standard for ebooks and unless you make the font big, doesn't work! If you are obsessed with copying paper style there would be no link! But a style compromise is a Character Style (can be done in Word) that hides the customary link style for the preceeding word, but it is the link, so when the tiny number is tapped the UI really gets the tap on the adjoining word and the link to footnote works.

If you don't believe, PM an email address and I will send a word docx and you can make it to an epub in Calibre without any editing in Calibre.

Loads of big companies do stupid imitations of paper, often with InDesign, that don't work. That does not make what they do an industry standard.

We test on up to 5 makes of eink reader, including three kinds of Kindle, and also on Apps on 4.3″ to 10″ phones/tablets. Our ebooks work on epub, Kindle KFX, Kindle azw3 and are readable on the ancient Kindle models that only do mobi.

You also can't rely on footnotes working as "popups", so they must be 1 to 1 with the main text and each having a [back] text at the end to bookmark (Word, becomes HTML anchor) at the source paragraph.

Having footnotes at the end of each chapter is preferable to the end of the book for those that don't click or don't want to spoil the flow. Also a few ereaders have no hyperlinks at all, so the only way to read the footnotes is when you get to that page!
What you can't do ever on ebooks is have bottom of the page footnotes as are common in some fiction and reference. But you can insert right justified marginalia just after a paragraph which works for very short notes.

Ebooks have properties paper doesn't have (change font face, margins, font size, line spacing, links and a system TOC accessible on every page. Usually search within book, unlimited bookmarks, highlight and annotations too). But not all ereaders and not all apps have all of these features.
Conversely while drop caps, SMALL CAPS, work on some ereaders/apps, they are a bad idea as they don't always work. Usually double-page spread to show info across two pages is impossible, similarly support for columns is possible but fails on most phones, and over 1/2 of ebooks read on phones. Many screens aren't big enough. People with poorer eyesight will maybe have twice the size of font you imagine. Tables are possible, but can easily be useless. More use of sequential alternate paragraphs than side-by-side columns needed together.

So Ebooks are wonderful, but you can't present the content exactly as on paper and give a good reading experience.

Get a 6″ Kindle and an 8″ Kobo pair of eink and read lots on them and test on them. Amazon has over 90% of English Language market, yet don't deliver as epub, but best upload to them is epub. They have three main formats for "real" ebooks, depending on Kindle model, app and delivery method.