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Old 09-23-2010, 09:49 AM   #31
JSWolf
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I do not see why readers cannot implement the LaTex way of doing hyphenation and then the issue of left vs full would be a lot less of an issue. We'd then choose full as we would not have such wide caverns between words.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:03 AM   #32
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i thought the wide caverns were there for holes in the story to fall into ( )
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:29 AM   #33
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I do not see why readers cannot implement the LaTex way of doing hyphenation and then the issue of left vs full would be a lot less of an issue. We'd then choose full as we would not have such wide caverns between words.
LaTex is an "off-line" text processor. Its hyphenation algorithm, excellent though it is, could probably not be implemented in real time by the comparatively slow CPUs that eBook readers use.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:37 AM   #34
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Maybe when they start using the latest ARM CPU's with a lot more grunt than the current ARM11's we might get a chance of seeing it happen. I for one would love to be able to just offer a LaTeX source eBook. Of course, you need a lot of room for all the associated TeX files.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
LaTex is an "off-line" text processor. Its hyphenation algorithm, excellent though it is, could probably not be implemented in real time by the comparatively slow CPUs that eBook readers use.
Why not? All they need do is process the hyphens while we are reading the current page. That would work fine.

Also, the processors are faster. Are you sure the current speed is too slow?
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:58 AM   #36
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Maybe when they start using the latest ARM CPU's with a lot more grunt than the current ARM11's we might get a chance of seeing it happen. I for one would love to be able to just offer a LaTeX source eBook. Of course, you need a lot of room for all the associated TeX files.
It's not about offering LaTex soured eBooks. It's about using the existing reading software but adding LaTex based hyphenation.
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:00 AM   #37
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Also, the processors are faster. Are you sure the current speed is too slow?
With something like an Intel Atom 1.6GHz CPU, it takes about a minute to process our 380 page book through LaTeX -> DVI -> final output. It's also not something you can do 'well' in pieces, since obviously what happens before influences the positioning of everything ahead.

What I'm wondering though now is, why can't something like Calibre do the preprocessing into a high quality output format like PDF that's specifically tailored to the device it's being transferred to?

Paul.
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:02 AM   #38
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It's not about offering LaTex soured eBooks. It's about using the existing reading software but adding LaTex based hyphenation.
I suppose it comes down to how much of a purist one wants to be. The hypenation algorithm depends so much on all the other parts of the LaTeX processing such that if you pull the algorithm out of LaTeX you'll probably just end up with what we already have in the e-readers.

Paul.
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:04 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by MrPLD View Post
With something like an Intel Atom 1.6GHz CPU, it takes about a minute to process our 380 page book through LaTeX -> DVI -> final output. It's also not something you can do 'well' in pieces, since obviously what happens before influences the positioning of everything ahead.

What I'm wondering though now is, why can't something like Calibre do the preprocessing into a high quality output format like PDF that's specifically tailored to the device it's being transferred to?

Paul.
But we are not format shifting. That again is something different. We are talking about using the LaTex routines for hyphenation.

PDF is not a high quality format. In fact, it's NOT an eBook format. So let's leave PDF out of this. We are talking just reflowing formats like ePub. If we could get hyphenation added to ePub, it would be a lot nicer. Oh, one other thing ADE needs when dealing with full justification and that is variable width spaces.
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:28 AM   #40
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I'm having a hard time crystalising my mental concepts tonight but I'll look forward to coming back to this tomorrow and discussing in more detail.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:02 PM   #41
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I do not see why readers cannot implement the LaTex way of doing hyphenation and then the issue of left vs full would be a lot less of an issue. We'd then choose full as we would not have such wide caverns between words.
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LaTex is an "off-line" text processor. Its hyphenation algorithm, excellent though it is, could probably not be implemented in real time by the comparatively slow CPUs that eBook readers use.
I think Jon is not asking for the full LaTeX apparatus, but just for the hyphenation algorithm. In principle, it could even be separated from the line-breaking algorithm (finding the best linebreaks in a paragraph). I don't think something like this would be tremendously resource-costly for current readers, very likely not more than a web browser...
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:04 PM   #42
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What I'm wondering though now is, why can't something like Calibre do the preprocessing into a high quality output format like PDF that's specifically tailored to the device it's being transferred to?
You can use LaTeX (or pdfLaTeX) itself for that, you know
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:12 PM   #43
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I think Jon is not asking for the full LaTeX apparatus, but just for the hyphenation algorithm. In principle, it could even be separated from the line-breaking algorithm (finding the best linebreaks in a paragraph). I don't think something like this would be tremendously resource-costly for current readers, very likely not more than a web browser...
I don't know very much about LaTeX. Does it use a hyphenation dictionary? It might well be too slow to look up every word in a dictionary in real time.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:51 PM   #44
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The big feature with TeX's engine is that it works on the whole paragraph, rather than the simpler method of working only with a single line.

Using the TeX algorithm, one would still hopefully bring across the ability to use ligatures, interword spacing, character protrusions and maybe even font scaling, without which the TeX algorithm can tend to generate awful results because it gets pushed beyond its limits, however it tends to be these 'finer features' that make the system grind more so than the primary hyphenation algorithm.

I wonder also if the parameters would be user-configurable.

Paul.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:57 PM   #45
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This doesn't really happen all that often unless you use a ridiculously large font, does it?
Unfortunately, I often DO use a ridiculously large font, depending on how tired my eyes are and what kind of lighting I have. Ragged right edge for me...
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