Problems for Apple

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

I don't have an iPhone, actually I don't have any smartphone, but it seems pretty slick from what I've read. Shooting a bunch of one-time tokens around to enable payment seems like a good security step.

They need to make it available to everyone; including those who don't have smartphones.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by taustin

If you use your debit card as a credit card (which is what I was talking about), it is a debit card so far as you are concerned. The money comes out of your bank account immediately, and if it's fraudulent, it's handled the same as if it were used as a debit card.

It's the best of both worlds for your bank.

No it is not. The part where the money comes out immediately causes the issue. If you use your CC, then you can choose to not pay the whole balance off and wait for the charges to go back in case of fraud. Money gone out of checking, even if only temporary, is money gone that you can't use.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by sabredog

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

If a tablet is performing perfectly well for an owner, then there is little incentive to upgrade that tablet. End of story.

I see. So it is not neccesary an Apple problem, but a tablet manufacturer problem as you see it. Upgrading is not the only reason to purchase a tablet though.

With the tablet market saturated and most people who wanted a tablet already owning one, it is obvious that the market has slowed.

I don't believe that the tablet market is as saturated as you may think. It certainly appears true for expensive high quality tablets (such as iPads) with no real incentive to upgrade (often). What about low cost / good quality tablets? The Fire HD 6 should have no reason to exist if everybody that wants a tablet already has one. Why would you want to upgrade to it when your bigger tablet works just fine? But then it is cheap enough to open the market to those that either cannot afford a more expensive tablet or choose not to (e.g. if it is a mere toy for children). There is a lot of young children that cannot yet be trusted with an expensive tablet that can be exploited as customers (or rather their parents / grandparents).

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

No it is not. The part where the money comes out immediately causes the issue. If you use your CC, then you can choose to not pay the whole balance off and wait for the charges to go back in case of fraud. Money gone out of checking, even if only temporary, is money gone that you can't use.

But since we are discussing what your bank considers good, this matters because...

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

I don't have an iPhone, actually I don't have any smartphone, but it seems pretty slick from what I've read. Shooting a bunch of one-time tokens around to enable payment seems like a good security step.

Once they got the double billing issue resolved, and you don't mind Apple tracking your purchasing habits, and the inevitable small price increases to cover the additional expense, etc, I suppose. And assuming Apple doesn't get hacked, too.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

No it is not. The part where the money comes out immediately causes the issue. If you use your CC, then you can choose to not pay the whole balance off and wait for the charges to go back in case of fraud. Money gone out of checking, even if only temporary, is money gone that you can't use.

You're not paying attention. I'm not talking about using a credit card. I'm talking about using a debit card as a credit card. There is no actual credit card involved.

Not all merchants do debit cards. But most debit cards have a Visa or MasterCard logo on them, and merchants that do not accept debit cards can accept those and process them as if they were credit cards. They are not credit cards, and none of the legal protections that apply to credit cards apply to them )(though banks generally extends the same protections as a matter of policy). More important, for you, as the consumer, they are still a debit card. So no, you can't not pay the whole balance, because the money is still taken out of your account immediately because it is still a debit card. But to the merchant, it looks and acts like a credit card.

This isn't that complicated.

[Shane R]

Skip Wyona got it mostly right. Let me just add:

* Killing Apple Pay also killed Google Wallet. Both used NFC readers to interact with the smartphone. Neither platform has that option at either store right now.

* Apple Pay is very standardized, the same way that your electrical outlets are standardized. That's why Apple Pay worked on payment terminals that were originally installed (years ago) for Google Wallet. The only thing that makes it Apple Pay is manner of storage of the credit information on the phones, and the software interaction that Apple does with the credit card stores.

The rest is based on a standard developed by EMV Co. This same standard will be present on the next generation of your credit cards (assuming you're American) as they transition from Chip and Signature to Chip and Pin.

* The credit card companies pay Apple, not the stores you do business with. Your stores are already paying 2%-4% of each credit card transaction to the credit card companies. The credit card companies in turn are paying Apple .015% for every transaction done through Apple pay.

* CVS, Rite Aide, Walmart, Target, 7-11 and the rest are tired of paying that that two to four percent (or, billions annually) to the CC companies for credit card processing. Their rival digital wallet will not allow credit card transactions, only ACH transactions directly from your bank account.

Obviously, the credit card companies don't want to see that become popular, and that's why they're backing Apple and Googles digital wallets.

* Edit: Oh yes, and supposedly Apple Pay denies the merchants any data about the consumers, much different than they get from credit cards right now. Another reason for them to oppose Apple Pay, as it interferes with their data and market information gathering and use.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by taustin

You're not paying attention. I'm not talking about using a credit card. I'm talking about using a debit card as a credit card. There is no actual credit card involved.

Not all merchants do debit cards. But most debit cards have a Visa or MasterCard logo on them, and merchants that do not accept debit cards can accept those and process them as if they were credit cards. They are not credit cards, and none of the legal protections that apply to credit cards apply to them )(though banks generally extends the same protections as a matter of policy). More important, for you, as the consumer, they are still a debit card. So no, you can't not pay the whole balance, because the money is still taken out of your account immediately because it is still a debit card. But to the merchant, it looks and acts like a credit card.

This isn't that complicated.

Gee, duh. Do you even read what you write? I wasn't talking about the merchant that was dealing with a "credit card". I am talking about YOU getting screwed by someone stealing your debit card and using it as a credit card. Sure, the bank will curtesy refund money for that fraudulent charge. If they do that, you are still screwed, because while you wait for the money to go back your morgage can bounce.

So to you if someone steals your credit card instead, all they can do is max out your line of credit. Until that fraudulent charge gets cleared you can still pay your morgage with real money out of your checking account. See the difference? Using your debit card as a credit card is not the best of both worlds.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Gee, duh. Do you even read what you write?

Since you weren't replying to what I wrote, no, not really.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Gee, duh. Do you even read what you write? I wasn't talking about the merchant that was dealing with a "credit card". I am talking about YOU getting screwed by someone stealing your debit card and using it as a credit card. Sure, the bank will curtesy refund money for that fraudulent charge. If they do that, you are still screwed, because while you wait for the money to go back your morgage can bounce.

So to you if someone steals your credit card instead, all they can do is max out your line of credit. Until that fraudulent charge gets cleared you can still pay your morgage with real money out of your checking account. See the difference?

Zzz...

Using your debit card as a credit card is not the best of both worlds.

Let's leave aside the confusion as the two of you talk past each other.

I have answered this (your real point). Here too, you are talking past each other.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

But since we are discussing what your bank considers good, this matters because...

Let's do some detective work -- what did taustin actually say?

Originally Posted by taustin

If you use your debit card as a credit card (which is what I was talking about), it is a debit card so far as you are concerned. The money comes out of your bank account immediately, and if it's fraudulent, it's handled the same as if it were used as a debit card.

It's the best of both worlds for your bank.

Note the part in bold+underline. (My emphasis.)

...

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by taustin

Once they got the double billing issue resolved, and you don't mind Apple tracking your purchasing habits, and the inevitable small price increases to cover the additional expense, etc, I suppose. And assuming Apple doesn't get hacked, too.

Apple doesn't track your purchasing habits. Apple doesn't know what you bought.

Apple doesn't charge the merchant anything to use Apple pay. The bank pays .15% of the transaction to Apple for Apple pay. This the difference between a card-not-present and card-present transaction - basically, the bank is accepting the card-present fee for use of Apple Pay, even though it is technically a card-not-present transaction.

It doesn't matter if Apple gets hacked. Apple doesn't have your credit card number. Nor is it shared with the merchant, which is why it's more secure.

[tubemonkey]

...in the mean time, I'm sticking with plastic until it gets obsoleted

[Shane R]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

...in the mean time, I'm sticking with plastic until it gets obsoleted

Hopefully that day comes soon. It's relatively insecure.

Your credit card number, or in industry parlance, Primary Account Number (PAN) is embedded in a primitive magnetic stripe on the back and, just for good measure, typically embossed on the front. There is no meaningful security on the card itself. For use in phone/internet transactions, the card also has a three- or four-digit security code printed on it as well, though this number is not absolutely required for transactions, and seems to be requested only at random. When you go to a store, you swipe your card and your plain-text PAN is seen by the merchant, then sent for verification through what you hope is a securely-encrypted connection to the credit card processor.

Apple Pay generates 16 digits numbers that look like CC numbers to the merchant but are one-time use only.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Apple doesn't track your purchasing habits. Apple doesn't know what you bought.

Apple doesn't charge the merchant anything to use Apple pay. The bank pays .15% of the transaction to Apple for Apple pay. This the difference between a card-not-present and card-present transaction - basically, the bank is accepting the card-present fee for use of Apple Pay, even though it is technically a card-not-present transaction.

It doesn't matter if Apple gets hacked. Apple doesn't have your credit card number. Nor is it shared with the merchant, which is why it's more secure.

The media is also reporting that Apple negotiated bank fees of 1.5% instead of their usual 2-3% because Apple Pay is designed to be more secure.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by Shane R

Hopefully that day comes soon. It's relatively insecure.

It won't happen until they can find an easier way to implement it. Using a smartphone leaves too many gaps. What about those who don't use them? To replace a credit card, they need a device that's small enough to fit in a wallet or on a keychain.