Seriously thoughtful Learning a new language

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by rgeorg

I have read that bi-lingual children, brought up with up to 3 different languages from an early age, have more highly developed cognitive processes (are smarter in general than they would be otherwise). I suppose this is because they use more of the language-reasoning part of their brains at an earlier age? Has anyone else read this?

There is some research on this. What I've seen that appears to be solid is that bilingual children have advantages in learning to read earlier (possibly because they are already familiar with the idea that a word can have more than one "encoding") and have advantages learning additional languages. There are also some interesting brain studies showing that those who have been bilingual from an early age process language differently than those who acquire an additional language as an adult, but I don't know if this has been verified against adult learners who have spoken a second language for a comparable period of time.

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I was thinking more of the self-study courses.
Rosetta Stone was the best of the bunch I test drove; but I didn't have the motivation to stick with it .

Unless you're studying classical Latin, I don't think you can really learn a language this way. There may eventually be computer-based systems that can detect and offer feedback on pronunciation (which Rosetta Stone claims to do, but does not), and there may eventually be computer systems that can handle simple conversations using correct grammar. Until these two processes are developed, I think the results are likely to be even worse than the kind of "pen of my aunt" memorization that goes on in poorly-taught middle-school classes.

That being said, the US Department of Defense has been funding a lot of work in this area, and one result is a series of language-learning video games which look quite promising, e.g. http://www3.isi.edu/about-news_story.htm?s=155

[HansTWN]

I tell you the most fun way to learn a language. You go to Saigon in Vietnam. Go to one of the street side coffee stalls. They all have very cute waitresses and the coffee is very special, different from what you get anywhere else in the word. When all the customers have been taken care off the waitresses chat with the customers. That is how I learned my Vietnamse. Better than any language course environment for two additional reasons. First, you get to hear people from all the different regions and their accents, not just your teacher. Second, you have to make yourself understood to a lot of different people, not just one teacher. Your teacher will understand you even if you mispronounce, others will not.

[nekokami]

Hm. It sounds like a good plan, but here's another: adopt a 6 year old from another country. This child is totally dependent on you. You will be motivated, trust me, to learn the language to be able to communicate. And as cute as the waitresses in Saigon may be, I think my teacher was even cuter.

[Daithi]

The only language I tried learning was Irish and found it VERY difficult. I tried for over a year, but I'm lucky if I can pick out a few spoken words in a sentence or song (TG4 and especially Seacht is pretty cool). I really feel sorry for Irish kids. I wanted to learn Irish, and I usually learn things easily, so I can just imagine what it is like for Irish kids that are forced to learn Irish as a second language in school.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Daithi

The only language I tried learning was Irish and found it VERY difficult.

That's because it is very difficult. Gaelic is widely-considered to be one of the most difficult of all languages to learn as a non-native speaker.

[nekokami]

Interesting -- most linguists I know seem of the general opinion that no human language is intrinsically more difficult than any other, though going from specific first languages to specific second (or later) languages can vary in difficulty.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's because it is very difficult. Gaelic is widely-considered to be one of the most difficult of all languages to learn as a non-native speaker.

Visiting some Irish relations when I was a child, I brought a mechanical calendar as a Souvenir. On the back was a Gaelic inscription, so I asked my uncle what it said; he looked at it and asked if I was sure I wanted to know; I said yes, and he told me it said 'Made in Japan'.

[doreenjoy]

I've been struggling with learning Italian most of my life. The core issue (I believe) is that none of my relatives actually spoke Italian. My grandparents spoke Abruzzessa, Bergamesa, and Piedmontese. These dialects sound nothing like National Italian. Nothing at all.

My father and mother did not learn "Italian" until after I was a teenager, and by then I was ruined by thinking that all the languages I grew up hearing were Italian when they weren't.

I have spent the past five years forgetting the amalgamation of dialects I collected as a child, so I'm hoping that when I go back to learn Italian now, I'll have a clean slate. It's quite embarrassing to whip out my Italian passport and not be able to speak the national language.

[HansTWN]

Different languages represent different problems. European languages like German and Slavic languages tend to have very complicated grammar. Basque and Gaelic are very different from all other languages. Asian languages like all the Chinese languages and Vietnamese have four to eight tones. That means that what for Western ears sounds the same can actually be up to 8 different sounds. For example in Mandarin first tone "ma" means mother, second tone "ma" means hemp, third tone "ma" is a word that is placed at the end of a sentence to indicate a question, and fourth tone "ma" means to insult (among other additional meanings). This represents both a challenge for understanding others, as well as for being understood. In English or German you can always understand a foreigner, even if the pronounciation is no good at all.

Some languages are extremely easy to learn. For example every foreigner I know who has lived in Indonesia for a short time can speak some Indonesian. However, the same persons go to live in Vietnam and, after five years, only know how to say thank you. The main reason being that they get frustrated because when they start out no native speaker understands a single word they are saying and they quit learning very soon.

[GraceKrispy]

Navajo is a tonal language as well- rising tones, falling tones, nasal tones and combinations of them all. I think the grammar structure is quite complicated, but I feel like Japanese has to be more difficult.

[Kris777]

[HansTWN]

Japanese isn't that difficult, I also studied it for 6 months. The main problem is that Japanese people are too polite and that is reflected in the language and the way people express themselves. But they do have grammar to learn (tenses, etc), Japanese is not tonal and not related to other Asian languages and is structurally completely different.

@Daithi: "I'm lucky if I can pick out a few spoken words in a song" --- understanding songs in a foreign language is actually extremely difficult and you need a very high level of proficiency. Unusual words are being used and the natural rhythm of the language is adapted to fit the melody.

[ficbot]

Verencat, interesting what you said about knowing others who took the same classes as you and did not come out fluent My siblings all went to the same school as me, and none of them have Hebrew or French anywhere near mine. My step-brother has his kids in such a school right now and has been using me as an example to his kids, and I am not always comfortable with that

My main obstacle to learning to write better French is the incredible tediousness of producing accented characters on non-French keyboards. When I have to write in French, I often just put it through Google Translator and cut/paste the accented words. I wish there was an easier way. I think I would post on-line more and such if the whole accent thing weren't so much of an issue. Also, I get nervous when I read because I panic a little when I see a word I don't know (an ebook which supported instant lookup on non-English dictionaries would be a huge help!) I prefer speaking because I can choose to use only words I know

I had an experience two years ago where I had to go to a meeting at a school for Russian kids, and I remember seeing posters on the wall when I went in which were clearly ABC posters (e.g. a picture of an apple with a letter underneath it, a picture of a ball with a letter underneath it etc.) and being so frustrated that I didn't understand. I guess I have always been told I am 'good with languages' and it was a rare experience for me to be around one I did not understand, and I didn't like it at all I should have been born a European. It just seems like a much better environment for learning languages 'naturally' and have opportunities to actually keep them in use!

ETA: All right, I delurked in the French forum Hope I did okay...

[HansTWN]

An easy way to reproduce special characters is to reprogram the function keys, F2-F11. As for that natural environment in Europe: I grew up about 20 miles/30 km from the French border. But that didn't help learning French one bit. Going there for an extended period, that is what it takes. So in the end you still get to know languages other than your own from school, unless you make that special effort.

[fugazied]

The more you learn the easier they get, and Spanish is probably the easiest language for an English speaker to learn so perhaps start there?

Also they say the best way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in the language so get a spanish speaking boyfriend or girlfriend and get immersed!

One thing I always find fascinating is where words come from. If you can link the genealogy of words, then you will find learning french/spanish/portugese/german and so on a lot easier. A lot of words have come to english via old french which is via latin. Also a lot of english words have germanic roots. In fact English is very adept at integrating other languages into itself, so we have a headstart at learning those 'cousins' to English.