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Old 12-23-2019, 04:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Balentius View Post
Just understand that there are other people that really like the previous functionality, and so you're going to hear about this for years as people upgrade and realize what they've lost.
Not really. It's pretty-much faded into the background already. Just the occasional drive-by, now. In another handful of releases, most people will have either adapted to the changes, or moved on to something that better suits their needs. There will be no loyal band of die-hards lamenting the glory of Sigils past. Such is the nature of the internet.

I was the one that called Book View a boat-anchor, by the way. Not Kevin.

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Old 12-23-2019, 05:00 PM   #17
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And FWIW, as long as you can unzip the epub, you can use Pagedit directly to edit the xhtml and not need or use Sigil at all.

PageEdit is not BookView and was never meant to be. The design of PageEdit was to ease final proofing and editing, not to replace BookView. BookView is gone for good.
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:29 PM   #18
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open the opf in the current Tab and then invoke PageEdit with the icon.
I'll try that out, but my gut reaction is that the PageEdit view replacing the code view (as Book View did) seems easier and more intuitive.

Possibly not easier to code, of course.
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:35 PM   #19
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I can appreciate the difficulties @DiapDealer describes in keeping Book View up to date, and again appreciate the work you all have done.

What I guess I find mystifying is the apparent level of disdain for users who quite liked the way Book View worked. Clearly there are people (myself included) who found it useful - so much so that I've held off on updating for a year.

Obviously all you who are doing the coding didn't find Book View useful enough. That's fair. But why the (seeming) contempt for those who did? We weren't using it 'wrong', just differently from the way (it appears) you do.

I still expect Sigil to be my main production tool, and I'll probably get used to PageEdit. But I can't deny that the change (and the responses) have opened my eyes to the possibility of something else.
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:53 PM   #20
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I think disdain is a very strong word - it's more frustration at the individual(s) who complain about the same issue that has been addressed ad nauseum without bothering to read the very extensive threads describing the problems with book view...

The individuals who come here complaining about xxxx not working in Book view, or I have this very weird error that happens when I xxxx in book view, or why does book view cause my book to xxxx.......

Book view was broken.

It couldn't be fixed without extensive work from the volunteer coders maintaining Sigil.

Sigil was not meant to be an authoring tool.

Most regular users of Sigil never used Book View because the preview pane made it almost redundant.

The Sigil maintainers were kind enough to provide Page Edit to accommodate the very few who couldn't live without a typewriter

Cheers!

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Old 12-26-2019, 05:38 PM   #21
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I think disdain is a very strong word ...

The Sigil maintainers were kind enough to provide Page Edit to accommodate the very few who couldn't live without a typewriter
There's the disdain, smiley face or not.
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Old 12-26-2019, 06:25 PM   #22
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dis·dain
/disˈdān/

noun
the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect;
contempt.
"her upper lip curled in disdain"


Nope - still not disdain. Frustration is still more accurate.

IF we felt disdain - it wouldn't be worth our time or effort to even respond to those threads.....

Smiley faces are there specifically to give that non-verbal communication that is missing in the typed correspondence. Thus converting something that could be mistakenly taken in one manner, and portraying it in the way it's intended.

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Old 12-26-2019, 06:59 PM   #23
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And the warnings and discussion went on for years so that everyone knew to expect the removal of BookView, long in advance. But people still waited and complained as if we had made that decision based on nothing and implied it was crazy. On top of that many of those same BookView zealots used BookView as a crutch to avoid actually having to learn any html/xhtml/css, even though the code generated by BookView was often quite broken.

I can still see that proofing and simple edits are often easier to accomplish in a visual editing environment. But proofing and simple editing does not require the degree of integration and the amount of trouble that BookView caused. In addition, being able to see CodeView and Preview side by side was more than enough for most serious coders.

Thus PageEdit was born with the ability to make proofing and simple visual edits. It uses an editing interface very similar to what BookView used with much of its basic functionality. Plus it enables the Inspector for making direct code edits, added spellchecking, and enables editing and preview modes. If launched via the OPF, the book can be edited and navigated in spine-order, just like a e-reader.

It is not BookView but it never meant to be. It was meant to be a visual proofing and simple editing tool that could supplement Sigil.

But no matter how many complain and threaten to leave Sigil, the decision on BookView was made long ago and in my opinion is the right path forward for Sigil and its users.
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Old 12-26-2019, 07:44 PM   #24
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Implying that people who use(d) BookView are looking for a typewriter - I don't see that as an expression of frustration, but of disdain. They don't use the software the way that you do. Is that a reason to denigrate their use?
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:00 PM   #25
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If you insist on taking my words as disdainful that's on you, not me. I certainly didn't intend them that way - thus the smiley - but I can't be held responsible for those who willfully choose to misinterpret others. Not to mention taking a snippet of a long post out of context...

Cheers and have a very Merry Christmas christmahanakwanzika !!

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Old 12-26-2019, 08:01 PM   #26
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No but using the software for something that it was not meant to do, and that can and will generate broken code, and then complaining when that functionality goes away (after years of notice and discussion) does drive many long time users of this forum to distraction due to the repetitiveness of the threads.

This leads to forum responses getting more and more curt and abrupt. And worse many of those same complainers never seem to want to even try its replacement with the complaint that one they do not like the interface. This always amazes me as the interface to much of the functionality in PageEdit was taken directly from BookView with the only big difference is in how PageEdit is launched. But with common desktop screen/spaces swapping, screen real estate is basically meaningless and a single key can swap whole desktops.
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:01 PM   #27
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I appreciate that there's been discussion of this. I read much of it last year. But I generally only come to this forum when I'm trying to solve a problem; I don't read it regularly as a matter of course, and I suspect that's true of many others. Yes, I searched the fora. No, I didn't find all the threads on this. No, I didn't find the explanation I was looking for.

I appreciate that you produce this software out of altruism, that you work hard for no pay, and that it must be frustrating to have people then complain, and seem ungrateful.

From the user's perspective, Sigil had a feature, now it doesn't, and much of the communication seems to have been: "You shouldn't need it if you use the software right - i.e., the way I do." It's a bit like Apple removing the headphone jack and telling its users to just do things differently. There's a logic to it, but it's also natural to try to understand the decision better.

I'm not new to these boards (if not a frequent user). I'm not new to Sigil. I do know how to use html and css. I've put together dozens of books, and I have a workflow that works for me. I also use Sigil to fix typos in public domain books, because it's easier to use than Calibre - in part because of Book View. For those of us working on laptops, the preview window is simply too small to work well with. I guess, in your view, that makes me "not a serious coder" - though I'm about to start on what must be the 60th well-produced, properly structured book I've put together from start to finish, using Sigil.

I can't speak for others, but I'm not 'threatening to leave'. Why would you care? What I am doing, and what I think some others are doing, is telling you that Book View has been an important part of our workflow. The ability to flip back and forth is useful. This is user feedback.

You clearly have a different view, and you're the one in charge. I understand that if I want better software, I can learn to code, and make it myself. What I'm suggesting is that some proportion of users liked the old way, and wish we could still use it - not because we're lazy, or not serious, or ignorant, or any of the other things the threads hint at, but because it works for us.

I'm sure you're tired of discussing this, so I'll try to let this be my last word. I do hope, though, that you consider that not everyone complaining is doing so because they don't know what they're doing, or would keep quiet if they only saw the light.
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:02 PM   #28
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I think this thread has reached the end of its usefulness for everyone so I am closing it.

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Old 12-26-2019, 10:10 PM   #29
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I know this thread has been closed, but I feel it important to address one simple thing that always seems to be overlooked by those who want to lament the "loss" of Book View.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Overlord View Post
I understand that if I want better software, I can learn to code, and make it myself. What I'm suggesting is that some proportion of users liked the old way, and wish we could still use it - not because we're lazy, or not serious, or ignorant, or any of the other things the threads hint at, but because it works for us.
You (and users like you) don't have to "wish" for anything. And you certainly don't have to learn to code and write your own software. It's much easier than that. You can continue to use the version(s) of Sigil that work best for you. Nothing you like has been taken away from you. Book View has not been taken away from anyone. It's still right where it was in all the older versions of Sigil that are still available (and always will be). No one is obligated (nor is it a right) to upgrade to the latest version of Sigil. Use the Book View versions for as long as you like with our blessings. THAT'S the actual source of frustration for me (RE the incessant complaining)--the idea that we've somehow reached into your computers and stolen something from you. We've done nothing of the sort. We've taken nothing from you. Nothing whatsoever. It's still right there where it always was. Use it in good health.
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