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Old 12-12-2017, 11:55 PM   #76
darryl
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I think you are giving Amazon a little too much credit for being customer focused. They drug their feet for a long time on the whole bold issue. They are going to be careful about doing anything to upset customers too much, but they aren't going to be responsive to customer's needs/wants unless there are enough of them that care.
Precisely. I did cover this in a previous post. Amazon's customer focus in general is just that. General. It doesn't mean that it is going to accommodate any particular individual customer or group of customers, particularly where it relates to platform changes. I have come to realise that Amazon places great importance on providing the best user experience for most users, not niche users or power users. I think what eventually prompted the font handling changes is not that a relatively small group of customers wanted to play with fonts. It was the recognition that more bold options improved the experience for many readers, particularly older and visually impaired readers. I think the delay was because they want their software to be very easy to use, including across multiple devices. Many of us don't realise how really confusing even a good gui can get for some people, who just want something that works, not a multitude of confusing options. This is reflected in the way the changes were implemented, not with finely grained control like Kobo but with simple choices.

More sophisticated users are simply going to have to put up with the fact that Amazon is not going to cater to our whims or preferences at the cost of making the GUI even a little more complicated, unless the case for it is very compelling indeed. I'm sure the existing GUI attracts many support calls for simple help, with each added little complexity generating more. The only real option is to vote with your feet, though to do so in many cases would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, at least to some extent. I could be happy reading exclusively on my H2O, but would still want to buy my books on Amazon. I would miss whispersync and 3g connectivity. I would probably end up having to deprive myself of KU, because there would be no verifiable way of ensuring the author would be paid when reading on my H2O. That would be money straight from my pocket! And my Oasis or Paperwhite offers an excellent reading experience, even if not as customisable as my H2O.

Last edited by darryl; 12-13-2017 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:32 AM   #77
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I had not thought this through adequately nor sufficiently understood the technical advantages of kfx, but clearly this does fit in very neatly with Amazon's customer-driven philosophy. In fact, given the variety of Amazon devices and applications and its obsessiveness with customer satisfaction, having a single format able to deliver a near uniform and optimal reader experience over all devices and applications is an explanation in itself. As I understand DiapDealer's above comments, an epub like implementation in kf8 would not have the desired result of a similar rendering on all devices. Instead, to achieve this would require a separate customised kf8 file for each device, a far less satisfactory solution.
I still stand on my reasoning that KFX is not needed and that all of this can still be done with KF8 without the need to change KF8. It can all be done with the renderer for KF8. It's just a matter of how KF8 is interpreted. Most Kindle eBooks start like as ePub. They then get converted to Mobi, KF8, and KFX. Some piece of software has to do the conversion from the source ePub to get these files. There's no reason the renderer for KF8 deliver the KFX experience. The KF8 renderer could be customized for each screen resolution and KFX would not need to exist.
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:34 AM   #78
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I think you are giving Amazon a little too much credit for being customer focused. They drug their feet for a long time on the whole bold issue. They are going to be careful about doing anything to upset customers too much, but they aren't going to be responsive to customer's needs/wants unless there are enough of them that care.
Customer needs...Where is the margin setting? Where is the light height setting? Where are the user installable fonts? There are things that have been on a lot of people's wish list for a long time. Amazon knows these features are wanted for the Kindle and yet they do nothing.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:59 AM   #79
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You will still be giving Amazon money.
yes, I know that, but KU is renting not buying and I am aware of that.
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Old 12-13-2017, 06:25 AM   #80
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I still stand on my reasoning that KFX is not needed and that all of this can still be done with KF8 without the need to change KF8. It can all be done with the renderer for KF8. It's just a matter of how KF8 is interpreted. Most Kindle eBooks start like as ePub. They then get converted to Mobi, KF8, and KFX. Some piece of software has to do the conversion from the source ePub to get these files. There's no reason the renderer for KF8 deliver the KFX experience. The KF8 renderer could be customized for each screen resolution and KFX would not need to exist.
That it has been done in epub proves it can be done. However, according to DiapDealer's comments, the epub implementation "will render differently (from subtle to drastic) in every app and on every device." KFX, on the other hand, gives a very similar rendering across all Amazon devices and apps which support it. As I understand it to achieve this in kf8 would not be trivial and may require changes to the format and/or the renderer on each device. Or failing this, customised kf8 files for each book/device combination. I very much doubt it would be impossible, but it does seem likely that Amazon chose kfx for good technical reasons, perhaps that achieving what they wanted was much easier technically and more efficient with kfx.

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Customer needs...Where is the margin setting? Where is the light height setting? Where are the user installable fonts? There are things that have been on a lot of people's wish list for a long time. Amazon knows these features are wanted for the Kindle and yet they do nothing.
But apparently "a lot of people" is in fact a very small minority. The vast majority are apparently quite happy with the controls they do have. And Amazon, as I posted earlier, seems to be very reluctant to add any features which add complexity to the gui, for good and valid reasons.

I too would like Amazon to have stuck with kf8. But unfortunately I am in a small minority that Amazon is not prepared to cater to in this regard. You are too. You have chosen to go to Kobo. I have stuck with Amazon. I love my H2O but find I'm using it with declining frequency. My First Generation Oasis does not give the same level of control as the H2O, but does give sufficient control now further bold font options have been added. I must say that it does give a very good reading experience. Others of course are much more fussy.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:29 AM   #81
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... In fact, given the variety of Amazon devices and applications and its obsessiveness with customer satisfaction, having a single format able to deliver a near uniform and optimal reader experience over all devices and applications is an explanation in itself.
In Kindle world is it not true that the devices, the firmware and the book formats are all totally controlled by Amazon. Therefore why would I not also conclude that any current problematic user reading experiences are problems entirely of Amazon's own making?

If we also include the phone/tablet market, the number of people using anything other than Kindle4Android or Kindle4IOS to read MOBI/KF8 books must be miniscule and therefore, by your own reasoning, too niche for Amazon to care about. Once again, Amazon proprietary apps, so my conclusion is the same as above.

Reading these forums, it seems the definition of "niche" is "features offered by other brands which Kindles do not currently have". I could swear that demand for screens bigger than 6" was being dismissed as "niche" this time last year. Am I also to believe that adding a few more options for margin-widths and/or line-spacing would cause a meltdown on the CS phones, whereas the recent adding of a few more font-sizes won't?
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:59 AM   #82
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Reading these forums, it seems the definition of "niche" is "features offered by other brands which Kindles do not currently have". I could swear that demand for screens bigger than 6" was being dismissed as "niche" this time last year. Am I also to believe that adding a few more options for margin-widths and/or line-spacing would cause a meltdown on the CS phones, whereas the recent adding of a few more font-sizes won't?
Of course it is niche, by definition. Otherwise Amazon would not have such a big marketshare in the US. If Amazon would have introduced the bigger size last year it would have flown off the shelves just the same.

All things being equal (similar specs, size, price) which version of ereader do you think would sell better? The Amazon version that is tied to the Amazon eco system or the epub version?
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:19 PM   #83
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yes, I know that, but KU is renting not buying and I am aware of that.
And the difference being? You will still be giving Amazon over $100 a year and getting nothing to show in the end.
But you know my stand on that one. I've said it enough.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:25 PM   #84
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In Kindle world is it not true that the devices, the firmware and the book formats are all totally controlled by Amazon. Therefore why would I not also conclude that any current problematic user reading experiences are problems entirely of Amazon's own making?

If we also include the phone/tablet market, the number of people using anything other than Kindle4Android or Kindle4IOS to read MOBI/KF8 books must be miniscule and therefore, by your own reasoning, too niche for Amazon to care about. Once again, Amazon proprietary apps, so my conclusion is the same as above.

Reading these forums, it seems the definition of "niche" is "features offered by other brands which Kindles do not currently have". I could swear that demand for screens bigger than 6" was being dismissed as "niche" this time last year. Am I also to believe that adding a few more options for margin-widths and/or line-spacing would cause a meltdown on the CS phones, whereas the recent adding of a few more font-sizes won't?
Anyway you want to slice it, ereaders are a niche product. There are enough in that niche to warrant a bigger screen. Did anyone else notice Amazon let Kobo do the initial research on both size and waterproofing?
Yes to the general public 100 million or so seems like a lot. Compared to the billions of phones and tablets, it is just a drop in the bucket.

Expect at least 6 months from enough people wanting something to it being implemented.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:22 PM   #85
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In Kindle world is it not true that the devices, the firmware and the book formats are all totally controlled by Amazon. Therefore why would I not also conclude that any current problematic user reading experiences are problems entirely of Amazon's own making?
I think that in this very thread, Diap Dealer pointed out that Apple requires a specific library be used for all HTML rendering on Apple branded devices. (Not that I have a lot of sympathy for the way either treats the other.)
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:31 PM   #86
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Anyway you want to slice it, ereaders are a niche product. There are enough in that niche to warrant a bigger screen. Did anyone else notice Amazon let Kobo do the initial research on both size and waterproofing?
Yes to the general public 100 million or so seems like a lot. Compared to the billions of phones and tablets, it is just a drop in the bucket.
Yeah, Amazon seems to mostly be following the past multiple years, but they were the first company to bring back buttons and provide an option to disable the touchscreen (but kudos to the developers for providing the latter first).

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Expect at least 6 months from enough people wanting something to it being implemented.
For sure. Buttons took longer, and it has been years for the first toe dipping for touchscreen disabling.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:57 PM   #87
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And the difference being? You will still be giving Amazon over $100 a year and getting nothing to show in the end.
But you know my stand on that one. I've said it enough.


What is wrong with continue giving Amazon money for a service that does not need DRM circumvention in the first place? There is no alternative with the same selection. Buying ebooks you can do from different stores - whichever store still gives the option to bypass DRM is the one that will get your money.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:09 PM   #88
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In point of fact, the fact that Amazon added a 32 GB option to the O2 shows that many customers do want more storage and that the SD-card option was not merely for a fringe minority. Users wanted more storage. Didn't Apple to this? Remove the card slot but add more internal storage. I suppose this has two benefits for companies. 1) they can charge over the odds for the RAM, and 2) they shut down a possible hacking inroute. But clearly storage and the SD-card slot was something that many users wanted, otherwise Amazon wouldn't have included it.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:35 PM   #89
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In point of fact, the fact that Amazon added a 32 GB option to the O2 shows that many customers do want more storage and that the SD-card option was not merely for a fringe minority. Users wanted more storage. Didn't Apple to this? Remove the card slot but add more internal storage. I suppose this has two benefits for companies. 1) they can charge over the odds for the RAM, and 2) they shut down a possible hacking inroute. But clearly storage and the SD-card slot was something that many users wanted, otherwise Amazon wouldn't have included it.
It isn't a coincidence that changing to 8 GB standard with a 32 GB option coincided with a unit capable of playing audiobooks with how much larger those files can be. It is being offered for people who listen to lots of audiobooks, not because they are responding to customers wanting more storage for plain ebooks.
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:03 PM   #90
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It isn't a coincidence that changing to 8 GB standard with a 32 GB option coincided with a unit capable of playing audiobooks with how much larger those files can be. It is being offered for people who listen to lots of audiobooks, not because they are responding to customers wanting more storage for plain ebooks.
I think smartphones are in the hands of over 75% of people in the USA. These are far more capable with audiobooks. I don’t think many people were asking for the ability to play audiobooks on their Kindles, especially when it does not support ‘immersion reading’. It is more about marketing audiobooks to heavy (not necessary fat) and perhaps affluent readers (Kindle Oasis owners).

I agree they needed to bump up to 8GB storage just to make this story more plausible, but flash memory is very cheap these days so it doesn’t cut into profit margins much, on a $249 device. And it is a twofer: there are people who want more storage just so they can carry their entire library with them (never mind that it represents many reading-years to consume), or they read lots of manga or prefer more storage just in case they might need it in the future. More selling points.

I can imagine too that they want to add VoiceView support for non-English languages. That takes a little storage as well, though the voice files don’t necessarily need to all be on device.

This is all OT though.

Back OT: it seems to me that objections to KFX have mostly to do with the inconvenience it causes for format-shifting and the idea that Amazon is imposing DRM by other means.

I very much like it for the improved and more consistent reading experience it confers between books and across platforms. FINALLY. It is ‘sausage’, and I don’t care how it is done. When I want to format-shift it is easy enough to get KF8 bits to work with. And it seems this will be the case for the foreseeable future.

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